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 Document 1 of 3                                             .Page   1
 Classification:    UNCLASSIFIED      Status:         [STAY]
 Document Date:     01 Jan 89         Category:       [CAT)
 Report Type:       JPRS Report       Report Date:
 Report Number:     JPRS-USP-$9-007   UDC Number:
 Author(s):  PRIRODA correspondent with Roald Zinnurovich Sagdeyev,
 academician, specialist in the field of plasma physics
 and space research, chairman of the Soviet Scientists'
 Peace Committee, Hero of Socialist Labor, recipient of
 the Lenin and State prizes, member of the U.S. National
 Academy of Sciences , the Swedish Royal Academy, the Max
 Planck Society and a number of other academies, under the
 rubric  "The Organization of Science. Space Research "
 "Let Us Not Put Ourselves in the
 Headline:  Sagdeyev Discusses Space Missions, Folicy, Mars Plans
 Source Line:  1$660073a Moscow PRIRODA in Russian No 1, Jan $9 pp
 33-46
 Subslug:  [Interview by PRIRODA correspondent with Roald Zinnurovich
 Sagdeyev, academician, specialist in the field of plasma
 physics and space research, chairman of the Soviet
 Scientists' Peace Committee, Hero of Socialist Labor,
 recipient of the Lenin and State--prizes;-WC,uu~oz-ttte--U:S: --
 National Academy of Sciences, the Swedish Royal Academy,
 the Max Planck Society and a number of other academies,
 under the rubric  "The Organization of Science. Space
 Research " :  "Let Us Not Put Ourselves in the Position of
 the Junior Partner!" ; first paragraph, given in boldface
 as printed, is PRIRODA introduction]
 FULL T8%T OF ARTICLE:
 1.  [Text] Space research, despite its relative youth (the 30th
 anniversary of the beginning of the Space Age was observed not that
 long ago), has become a well-established part of our lives. We have
 become accustomed to regular launches of manned craft and unmanned
 cargo craft into near-earth orbits and no longer rememb~.r very well
 how many people make up the cosmonaut contingent in our country, not
 to mention those in the USA. It is true that we continue to be
 enraptured as we view the magnificent photographs on wh'ch have been
 imprinted the Earth or, for example, the giant planets Uranus,
 Jupiter or Saturn.  But this is a glance from the side. But what is
 actually going on in this field of science and technology whose
 actual state of affairs we have long known less than we would have
 liked to have known? What problems are troubling the specialists who
 have devoted themselves to cosmonautics? Academician R. Z. Sagdeyev,
 who headed up the U5SR Academy of Sciences's Space Research Institute
 UNCLASSIFIED              Approved f r Release
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 for more than 15 years, shares his own thoughts in this connection in
 an interview with our magazine's correspondent, N. D. M~rozovaya.
 2.  (Correspondent] For the two great space powers--the USSR and the
 ,USA--the year 1992 will be rich in major historic events: it
 represents the 500th Anniversary of the discovery of America, the
 75th Anniversary of the Great October Socialist Revolution and the
 35th Anniversary of the beginning of the Space Age. Is ~t true that,
 at the suggestion of these two. countries, it has been proposed that
 the year 1992 be declared World Space Year?
 3.  [Sagdeyevj In fact, such an-idea is being discussed now in the
 various international unions and, evidently, the ICSU--the
 International Council of Scientific Unions-- is supporting it. (I
 would remind you that all scientific unions belong to the ICSU,
 including our CO5PAR--the Committee on Space Research). Everyone
 recalls what a colossal success the International Geoph;sical Year
 was (1957-1958), during which the earth's very first artificial
 satellite was launched. This year brought together, in an unusual
 manner, scientists from many countries, and the interna'~ional
 scientific community welcomed the news about the launching of the
 Soviet satellite with enormous enthusiasm. And now, 30 years after
 that event, the very same ideas are guiding the scientists who are
 proposing this time that an International Space Year now be declared.
 If such a resolution is adopted, I am certain--tha?,~ -o~:RSC6 w~l--alsr>--------------
 support it.
 4.  It is difficult to overestimate the significance of so important
 a measure; it will produce an occasion for exchanging views about
 what has been done in space in the past and what needs *o be done in
 the future. Above all, this should strengthen internati~~nal
 cooperation.  Additionally, it is now very important th,:t an active
 promotional campaign be conducted among the broad masses regarding
 the achievements of cosmonautics and space science, because, on the
 one hand, space science and technology can play an enormous role in
 solving many contemporary global problems, and I have in mind, first
 and foremost, ecological and economic problems, not to mention space
 science itself, which is experiencing a period of turbulent growth.
 And, on the other hand, the expenditures for space research are
 extraordinarily great. At one time, Academician L. A. Artsimovich
 defined science as a means for satisfying the curiosity of scientists
 at the expense of the state. But space research is not at all an
 inexpensive means for satisfying this curiosity. Therefore, the
 adoption of decisions regarding the main directions to be taken in
 the development of space research has always been coupled with a
 heavy burden of responsibility.
 5.  During the development of the Soviet space program, we had an
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 opportunity to discuss our own approach at the International Space
 Forum, which took place in October of 1987, in Moscow. At the forum,
 we stated to scientists from 35 countries our own firm conviction
 that space research should not become an arena of competition and
 rivalry. And the economic aspects are by far not the least important
 factor. For that very reason, it is very important to explain why so
 much effort is being expended and enormous amounts of resources are
 being spent, while, within the framework of the scientists'
 international cooperation, it is necessary to look for ways to do
 this more cheaply.
 6.  [Correspondent] Thus, it is possible to say that space research
 is already quite a  "mature "  field of science that, in your words,
 is now blossoming. What would you list as its most fundamental
 achievements in our country and abroad?
 7.  [Sagdeyev] I consider one of the biggest yet achievements in the
 field of space research to be the discovery of the earth's radiation
 belts and magnetosphere. It is no accident that, even today, the
 earth's magnetosphere, with its own complex plasma dynamics, particle
 acceleration and instabilities, continues to interest many
 scientists. A great deal of work is being performed in that field,
 and special satellites are being launched. A number of
 hard-to-measure processes, such as shock waves, the recoupling of the
 magnetic field's -force lines and turbulence,---make-~ ~~=ec2y~?~3+--ta-----------
 perform new generations of experiments. In order to understand the
 cause-and-effect connections between events in the complex solar
 magnetosphere-ionosphere system, it is necessary to probe its various
 critical regions simultaneously, using a broad network of satellites
 and ground stations which operate in conjunction with them.
 8.  Thus, the Interbol project currently being prepared is intended
 for investigation of near-earth outer space using a system of probes.
 This project, planned for the years 1990-1991, includes two
 Prognoz-type satellites, each of which will have its own
 subsatellite. Interbol's basic task will be the study of the physical
 mechanisms responsible for the transfer of the solar wind's energy to
 the magnetosphere, for the accumulation there of this energy and for
 its subsequent dissipation in the magnetosphere's auroral regions, in
 the ionosphere and in the earth's atmosphere during magnetospheric
 substorms.  One of the satellites--the "tail probe,"  with its own
 subsatellite--will be placed into an orbit which will pass through
 the tail of the earth's magnetosphere, which is an energetic
 reservoir of magnetospheric substorms; whereas the other (the
 "auroral probe,"  with its own subsatellite) will be placed into an
 orbit .which passes through the region above the so-called auroral
 oval at an altitude of 5,000-15,000 lcm. Typical of this region are
 the charged-particle acceleration processes and the presence of
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 electric currents, which couple the electromagnetic field in the
 magnetosphere 's tail with the conducting ionosphere. Along with
 these experiments, studies will be made in the Interbol project of
 the plasma and the magnetic structures of the far regions of the
 magnetospheric tail.  In order to do this, plans have been made to
 use instruments on board the Relikt-2 astrophysical satellite.
 9.  Furthermore, in answer to your question, I want to note that our
 ideas about the solar system's planets have changed considerably. I3ow
 we have an opportunity for making direct contact with them. And this
 applies primarily to Venus, which we began to study using space
 technology resources more than 25 years ago, over which time we have
 sent 18 spacecraft to it. We managed to obtain, first,
 black-and-white images and, later, color images of the planet's
 surface at the landing sites of these craft. The elemental
 composition of the soil was determined in situ, i.e., a quite
 complicated technical problem had been solved. The use of radars made
 it possible to obtain a radar map of the planet's surface and to
 determine its typical morphological features. A great deal o#
 attention has been paid to the investigation of the atmosphere and
 the cloud layer on Venus. A lot of new and interesting data--not just
 about Venus, but also about Ha11ey's Comet--was obtained during the
 Vega mission, but that has already been recounted in detail in
 PRIRODA, and I will not dwell on it.<sup>1<reset> Thus, summing up
 certain results, I can say that the study of~~p~ane~-will -remain------
 a very important area of research for several decades to come; of
 this, I have no doubt.
 10.  Astronomy, in going out into space, has received an opportunity
 to see the universe in a new way: ultraviolet and x-ray observations
 have been added to the observations in the optical and radio
 frequency ranges, and { quanta are being recorded very reliably. At
 this very minute, the x-ray telescopes of the Kvant observatory are
 making observations of the supernova which exploded in 19$7 in the
 Large Magellanic Cloud. For the first time, astronomers can
 investigate directly the processes which occur, it can be said, at
 the nearest approaches to neutron stars and black holes.<sup>2<reset>
 11.  [Correspondent] In your opinion, what has space research given
 and what might it give to the other fields of science? And, in
 connection with this--is it possible to speak even today of some kind
 of practical return from the biological or, for example, production
 experiments in space?
 12.  [Sagdeyev] From my point of view, the biological experiments are
 an independent field of space science. First of all, they have made
 it possible to get an idea about the capability of the human body, or
 generally any living thing, to exist and function in zero-gravity
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 conditions. I cannot begin to say what practical importance they will
 have in the coming decade (in addition to, of course, those
 relatively brief--several months--cosmonaut flights, of which we are
 currently witnesses). But, if, after about 20 or 30 years, a manned
 flight to Mars still takes place, it will be a rather complicated
 mission, since it will require that man's stay in space be extended
 to as much as two to three years. I reiterate that, for the time
 being, it is difficult to talk about some kind of practical return
 from, for example, space biology for medicine, but, as p physicist, I
 would say that it is extremely interesting to study a substance under
 extreme conditions--at high pressures and high, or conversely,
 extremely low temperatures; this immediately helps exte::d the limits
 of our ideas about the phenomena under study. If, for contemporary
 medicine and biology, the absence of gravity is an example of such
 extreme conditions, then I think that interesting disco?:eries are
 possible on this path, but, I reiterate, it is difficult for me to
 make a judgment about this.
 13.  I would apply this very same principle of evaluation to
 technology as well, in particular, to the growing of crystals under
 the conditions of weightlessness. Unfortunately, no decisive step has
 been made in this direction. Every now and then, there are reports
 about certain minor achievements, but it seems to me that we are
 still a long way off from any substantial knowledge or t.ny serious
 incorporation of those achievements into cur-ea~t~i bound-pract.i-ces_.____I__
 would say that a vacuum developed for a period of time in this field,
 and serious specialists in solid-state physics--the ones who
 determine the direction of development of this science here on
 earth--did not enter the field. As a result, the vacuum was filled by
 engineers hurrying to get something introduced a little faster. For
 the time being, unfortuately, the situation is changing very slowly.
 Apparently, it is our academy who needs to take decisive steps to
 correct the situation that has developed.
 14.  [Correspondent] After a brief hiatus, the Soviet space program
 has again turned toward Mars. I am referring to the Phobos project,
 which got under way in June of 1988 with the launching of two
 unmanned interplanetary vehicles to Mars and its satellite, Phobos.
 As is well known, this is a multipurpose program which provides for
 an variegated investigation of the planet and its satellite, the sun
 and interplanetary space. Phobos should be the first small body of
 the solar system whose surface will be reached by a space vehicle.
 More than six months have passed since the launch of the spacecraft.
 Have you managed to get any kind of interesting results over this
 period of time?
 15.  [Sagdeyevj I would like to remind you that, on the flight path
 to Mars, the majority of scientific instruments have not yet been
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 turned on; nevertheless, the first and, it seems to me, interesting
 data have already begun to arrive.
 16._ For example, included in the project's scientific mission were
 Soviet-French experiments on the study of gamma radiation from solar
 flares and gamma bursts from neutron stars. Conducting these
 measurements simultaneously aboard near-earth satellites and
 interplanetary probes will make it possible to locate very precisely
 space sources of gamma bursts and to make stereoscopic measurements
 of solar flares (indeed, now, besides the Phobos vehicles, gamma
 bursts are also being recorded by two American satellites--SMM and
 Pioneer Venus).  On the flight from Earth to Mars, the Phobos
 vehicles' instruments were working continuously and were recording
 gamma bursts over an interval of 1-3 days. Thanks to the high
 sensitivity of the detectors and the use of microprocessors for
 preliminary processing of the data, it has been possible to measure
 the time structure of the { bursts with a resolution of around 1 ms.
 It is already clear that the bursts' spectra have a complex,
 multicomponent pattern and change in a matter of fractions of a
 second. After joint processing has been performed on the data
 obtained from all the space vehicles, the experimenters hope to
 determine the location of unknown { radiation sources (both in the
 sky and on the sun's disk) with an accuracy of several seconds of
 arc.
 17.  And I would like to talk about one more result obtained, since
 it concerns plasma physics--a field that is closest to my scientific
 interests. The Phobos vehicles' instruments have located the
 intersection of the shock wave front at the boundary of the earth's
 magnetosphere, and the intersection was a repeated one. This affected
 the relatively slow motion of the spacecraft in such a fashion that
 it seemed as if the shock wave front would run ahead and then drop
 back. As a result, we have obtained approximately a dozen such
 intersections. It must be said that, in and of itself, the
 intersection of the shock wave front is not of much interest on
 earth. But, for us, this was an extraordinarily important test which
 proved that the instruments aboard the spacecraft were operating
 properly.  We are now firmly convinced that the equipment's
 sensitivity is so high that we have reached a world-class level in
 plasma measurements. I am talking about the APV-F instrument--the
 plasma wave analyzer.
 18.  Similar such instruments were also on the Vega probes, but the
 situation was different at that time: the plasma activity of Halley's
 Comet was so great that we were not the least bit concerned about
 whether the sensitivity of the detectors was adequate or not. But in
 the Phobos project, a number of very delicate tasks had been set up
 which require that the equipment have enhanced sensitivity. The
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 specialists have no doubts that we will be ablQ to study the shock
 wave in the vicinity of Mars; but it will be much more interesting to
 observe haw a small satellite, with a diameter of 20 km all told (I
 am talking about Phobos), moves within the plasma--after all, it will
 create disturbances of a much lesser intensity.
 19.  This experiment turned out to be the last one in which Frederic
 Scarf--the well-known American physicist and researcher of the solar
 wind and the magnetosphere and a great and long-time friend of our
 institute--participated. He was also engaged in the Vega project:
 Phobos became his last creation--Scarf died suddenly, literally
 several days after the launching of the vehicles. i7e are now
 preparing for publication the materials that were obtained. I recall
 this because it was Scarf who, several years ago, discovered a very
 interesting graphic method for representing the results of the
 investigation of plasma oscillations with these types of
 intersections of shock waves or other similar regions. The idea is a
 simple one--the spectrum of the electrical and magnetic oscillations
 which are characteristics of these types of processes lies in the
 region of what for us are the customary sound waves. Scarf simply
 converted the electromagnetic noise into sound, and an unusual
 polyphonic music was obtained--an actual  "sound picture."  This
 technique was used for the first time during the investigation of
 Jupiter's magnetosphere by the Voyager interplanetary probe. I hope
 that this time we will also reproduce the- `-~muste'-L--vf -Mar-s--and-------_______
 Phobos according to Scarf's recipe.
 20.  [Correspondent] Unfortunately, on 2 September 1988, contact was
 lost with the Phobos 1 probe. How will this affect the entire
 research program,and what is being done in connection with this?
 21.  [Sagdeyev] Of course, this was a heavy blow for us. On 6
 September 1988, at 5 pm Moscow time, a telegram with the following
 content was sent to the members of the international cooperative who
 were participating in the project:  "The Control Center has informed
 us that Phobos 1, because of an error in a command, lost its attitude
 and is not responding to signals from earth. The Control Center is
 attempting to re-establish contact with the spacecraft. We will keep
 you informed of the situation."
 22.  So far, the situation has not changed. All kinds of measures are
 being taken to re-establish contact with the vehicle. Evidently, it
 will be very difficult to do this. But, so long as there exists even
 the slightest theoretical possibility of getting in contact with
 Phobos 1, such efforts will not cease.<sup>3<reset>
 23.  With regards to the scientific program of research, I would like
 to remind you that twa vehicles are taking part in the project and,
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 to a large extent, they duplicate one another, although,
 unfortunately, not in everything.  There are several instruments on
 Phobos 1 that are not on Phobos 2. Primarily, I am talking about the
 Terek instrument, whose tasking included investigation of the sun's
 x-ray radiation. It was developed by specialists from the US5R and
 the CzSSR. Now we are deprived of a lot of unique scientific
 information, and this is extremely disappointing.
 24.  [Correspondent] One cannot help remembering how successful the
 Vega mission was just two years ago, despite the fact that this was
 the first multipurpose project. Undoubtedly, the performance of such
 space projects is a very difficult matter in which nothing is
 trifling and it is too expensive to have to pay for errors.
 Obviously, the role of the scientists must increase. Is this not what
 you had in mind in your speech at the International Scientific
 Council on the Phobos project, which took place at the liSSR Academy
 of Sciences' Space Research Institute in June of 1988, when you
 called for an end to the  "hegemony of the producer? "
 25.  [Sagdeyev] T would say that everyone is familiar with the
 concept of the hegemony of the producer in our economy, on a personal
 basis, and all it takes, for example, is to go .into any store. In
 actuality, this phenomenon is, of course, much more widespread and,
 unfortunately, those who work in cosmonautics also feel the effects
 of the faulty system which has come about-fin-our-eeonem~---Por------
 example, the numerous--from the first to the sixteenth--
 Venera-series craft appeared not at all because our scientists were
 reaching out toward Venus so very madly; rather, it was simply a
 matter of this: it is either Venus (in the extreme case, Mars) or
 nothing. And quite often, it was necessary to contend with the fact
 that there was no real competitiveness between the industrial
 enterprises which specialized in this area. In each specific field,
 monopolies emerged, and, as a result, the scientists had almost no
 choice.
 26.  Moreover, it was even necessary to put up with .them banging
 their fists on the table at you. Unfortunately, this practice still
 persists, as was demonstrated by the recent events associated with
 the analysis of the situation on the Phobos 1 craft. Evidently,
 glasnost and democracy will come to the aerospace industry last. It
 seems to me that all too often, in general, people take refuge in
 "secretiveness "  in order to make life easier for themselves. I
 attribute this primarily to those managers who lack adequate
 capabilities for conducting their own affairs in a professional
 (and--as a consequence--successful) manner.
 27.  [Correspondent] Nevertheless, one would very much like to
 believe that, in the end, glasnost and democracy will cc+me to all the
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 spheres of our life just the same. But, it is still not clear to me
 why,. before recently, it was Venus or Mars that was selected as the
 research project?
 28.  [Sagdeyev] For each space project, with its own scientific or
 technical sparkle, it is necessary to develop an appropriate
 spacecraft. In order to do this, the designers, together with the
 scientists, create technical specifications that, each time, are new.
 But, in our case, the task consisted of trying to use an already
 existing  "machine "  over and over again. We were simply lucky that,
 in its time, the craft of the Venera series was thought up and its
 first models developed by such a remarkable enthusiast as G. N.
 Babakin. One can only marvel at the longevity of these craft: after
 all, with a design developed on the basis of them at the end of
 the'60s for the flights to Mars (recall Mars-3 through -7)--with
 certain modifications, of course--we managed in the middle of
 the'80's to pull off such a complex, multipurpose project as Vega.
 z9.  That is why I want to emphasize once again that competitiveness
 should be incorporated in the system from the very start, and then
 it's a matter of the consumer (in this case, the scientist), based on
 his own interests, selecting the best, the optimum version of the
 design effort.
 30.  [Correspondent] Then, will what is now being planriea to be-done ---
 during the Mars 94 project also be an example of such
 competitiveness?
 31.  [Sagdeyev] Everything depends on how perestroyka goes.  In fact,
 there are still a lot of little nooks and crannies (quite a few) into
 which, for all practical purposes, it has not yet penetrated because
 of  "secretiveness."  But, I am hoping all the same that, by 1994, we
 will develop a good project. And it is very important that, from the
 very beginning, the principles of scientific democracy and glasnost
 extend to all our international cooperation among scientists. In
 fact, we have managed to establish at the Space Research Institute
 quite a remarkable, informal scientific association which includes
 the laboratories of 15 countries, and, in certain projects being
 developed at this time, the number of participants is even greater.
 The main thing is for everyone tv realize that each member of such
 international cooperation has a right to his own opinion.
 32.  And, in my opinion, it is quite unimportant that competing
 versions developed by two industrial enterprises for the Mars 94
 project propose the use of different launch vehicles--either the
 Proton or the Energiya, i.e., the space probes will differ in the
 overall weight of the scientific package sent into space. The main
 thing is that, during the process of the preparation for this
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 project, the element of competitiveness emerge immediately.  Indeed,
 each of the groups, in proposing its own design version for the
 flight to Mars, is now trying to find the most interesting features
 of its own scenario in order to show that its design is the one which
 will enable science to get what it wants, and to the fullest extent.
 33.  (Correspondent] There are differing schools of thought on manned
 flights, particularly to Mars. Do you count yourself among the
 proponents of such flights, or are you for the unmanned probes?
 34.  [Sagdeyev] I consider manned flight a very important measure. It
 cannot be based only on the need to solve certain scien~ific
 problems. It also has a very important political aspect, inasmuch as
 it is its own kind of counterweight.to purely military projects such
 as, for example, SDI. But, at the same time, it must be clearly
 understood that this is also still a very complex project.  It is
 clear that no one is ready to do it today: the equipment needs to be
 developed, and more information must be obtained about Mars itself
 and about what we call its  "engineering model."  I am talking about
 the collection and assembly of the data which must be available to
 the engineers and designers in order to develop the unique equipment,
 put it into a Martian orbit, and then perform the flight and landing
 through the planet's atmosphere under little-known conditions.
 35.  Now in this first stage, as a precursor-rto~naniredflight,--there--------
 absolutely must be unmanned missions by robot vehicles. They need to
 be planned as the first links in a long chain of flights. In fact,
 even today, we need to think about a general line of research and not
 simply  "snatch out"  some individual flights.
 35.  [Correspondent] But does such a general line exist at the
 present time?  Md can you say something about the difference between
 the strategy of the space program in .our country and that in the
 West?
 37.  [Sagdeyev] I can freely assert that we have such a line of
 research. Thanks to glasnost, which made its way into our space
 science very swiftly, we simply were prepared for this, understanding
 that it is impossible to work otherwise. We have been a'~le to express
 and approve our own point of view on the development of space
 research (of course, this point of view is not something hard and
 fast--it is continuously developing, and we are taking into
 consideration our partners' suggestions as well).  This point of view
 has now become, I would say, a generally accepted concept.
 38.  Good orbital craft must first be developed, then descent modules
 must be landed on the surface of Mars, and then the landing craft
 must be made to move about the planet's surface, i.e., turn it into a
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 Martian excursion vehicle and teach it to overcome obstacles and
 traverse the various geological and climatic zones of Mars. It is
 .possible that, along its path, it will detect some signs of life or,
 at very Ieast, traces of organisms which existed at one time.
 39.  [Co.rrespondent] Do you consider the question  " Is there life on
 Mars?"  still open?
 40.  [Sagdeyev] Yes, it seems so to me. In any case, our.duty is to
 use all of the flights to this planet to obtain a definitive answer.
 A negative answer will also be extraordinarily important.
 41.  Subsequently, in the course of a discussion on the Mars. 94
 project, our foreign colleagues proposed adding to the
 above-described scenario yet another launching of balloon probes and
 even advanced a very interesting idea for their design: a double
 envelope--one filled with helium and one with hot air--which would
 "lie down to sleep "  at night and then, in the daytime, through the
 action of the solar rays, rise up once again and continue its own
 flight.
 42.  The next stage, also unmanned, involves the return of soil
 samples from the most interesting regions of Mars to Earth. If, by
 this time, equipment has been developed for travelling across the
 surface of Mars (and it requires not only-air-umzsual-desd$n-for a   _______._
 self-propelled vehicle, but also, in essence, actual artificial
 intelligence, which would control the Martian excursion vehicle),
 then we can count on such a vehicle to gather samples of material in
 the most diverse regions of the planet and deliver them to a rocket
 waiting to be dispatched to Earth.
 43.  This is one such scenario and sequence of operatio~.s which, in
 my opinion, can quite realistically be accomplished in ,.his century.
 It is very important that the projects be international ones--then
 they will cost each of the participants a lot less. After all, we can
 no longer allow ourselves the luxury of thoughtless com;?etition-- who
 will get a launch off first--with the parallel expenditures of
 enormous sums. But, the main thing is for all of us--the project's
 participants--to feel that we are the ambassadors of a single, small
 and, unfortunately, rather fragile planet, the planet Earth.
 44.  [Correspondent] In the spring of 1988, you were in the USA,
 where you met with American scientists and politicians. Was the
 possibility of a joint preparation and flight to Mars discussed? If
 so, what was achieved in these talks?
 45.  [Sagdeyev] To date, our meetings with the American scientists
 are proceeding in this manner: we are exchanging ideas and, I would
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 say, working out what are still just speculative scenarios. There is
 enormous interest on both sides (by the way, it's in Europe also).
 But the matter of an agreement is already being touched upon by the
 highest leaders of both countries. You know that M. S. Gorbachev, in
 his own speeches, has several times dwelt specially on ~.he subject of.
 joint Mars research. Of course, his interest inspires us. But that
 the same kind of enthusiasm needs to be displayed by the American
 administration. It had no time just then, for as you know, the
 election campaign was going on in the United States, but we are
 hoping that the new administration will regard these space projects
 with greater interest.
 46.  Yet, all the same, after the Moscow meeting, some changes had
 begun to show in the top levels. For example, we were given the
 opportunity to discuss officially the approaches to this problem (I
 am talking about the flight to Mars) with NASA administrators. For
 the time being, we are exchanging views on the unmanned scenarios of
 the Soviet flight to Mars, with an eye to starting up, sometime in
 the future, a discussion on joint missions.
 47.  [Correspondent] As is well known, the cost of both multipurpose
 space projects--Vega and Phobos--is quite high. Errors and
 malfunctions in the program can cost dearly. Would it not help here
 to have mathematical modeling of the. planned experiments?
 48.  [SagdeyevJ In any field of science, not just in cosmonautics,
 mathematical modeling is now becoming an imperative and a necessity.
 That is how it was during the Vega project: we attempted to model a
 large number of phenomena and processes long in advance of the launch
 of the space vehicles. The very same thing occurred during the
 preparations for the Phobos project as well.  Thus, all the
 ballistics were constructed on the basis of mathematical modeling;
 the same can also be said about many other experiments. And the
 farther we go, the more we need to resort to mathematical modeling.
 Therefore, we are counting very much on the appearance of the
 supercomputers. For us, they are not prestigious toys, Lut rather,
 primarily, instruments with which it is possible to carry out a
 considerable portion of the operations. Of course, this does not
 replace actual physical modeling, but, it assists it to an enormous
 degree.  And who knows, it is possible that it will replace it in the
 future! Unfortunately, for the time being, we can not get domestic
 supercomputers.
 49.  [Correspondent] What's the reason for that?
 50.  [SagdeyevJ During the notorious stagnant years, when the
 progress of our entire society was slowed down, including the
 development of many important areas in science as well, there
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 appeared yet one more sad feature--reports to the leadership which
 embellished reality extremely skillfully. This created the semblance
 of well-being, at both the top and the bottom. And, as a result,
 entire scientific areas were neglected. Now they need to be developed
 vigorously.
 51.  'But this problem has another, no less terrible aspect-- the
 young scientists and engineers who are working on various projects
 and witnesses their supervisors skillfully  "pulling the wool over
 people's eyes,"  are simply losing heart. Or what is worse--they
 themselves are beginning to work differently, and the same
 "wool-pullers "  are emerging among them. And that is the most
 terrible thing!
 52.  (Correspondent] Nevertheless, one would like to believe in the
 enthusiasm and reasonable optimism of our youth and to count on their
 creative potential. And so, the research on the Phobos project is now
 in full swing. But, certainly, discussion of-and, possibly,
 preparations for other, no less important space programs are going on
 at the same time. Which of them in our country and abroad would you
 take particular note of?
 53.  [Sagdeyev] In fact, right now, the Phobos project is, without a
 doubt, at the center of the international community's attention. As
 the interplanetary probes get closer to Mars;-interest-in-i~-w-il].-____________
 only increase.
 54.  But one more remarkable scientific event is taking place in
 1989--the American Voyager spacecraft, after its encounters with
 Jupiter and its satellites, Saturn's system and Uranus, will approach
 the planet Neptune. This is an example of unusual space longevity. We
 are all extremely delighted and, to be honest, terribly envious.  But
 I want to emphasize that, in this instance, to an enormous degree,
 everything is being determined by the extremely high production
 efficiency with which this craft was developed. Indeed, its entire
 system, as a whole, and each .individual small component--be it a
 microcircuit or a capacitor--needs to be able to operate for many
 years under extreme conditions (increased radiation, enormous
 temperature differentials and so on), without human intervention.
 55.  [Correspondent] Just how long has this space  "Methuselah "  been
 functioning?
 56.  [Sagdeyev] It was launched in 1978, so it has already been in
 flight for more than 10 years. But even this is not a record.
 Sometimes, as a joke, we are sent invitations to a banquet for the
 occasion of, for example, the 15th anniversary of Pioneer 6's
 continuous operation. That craft is a predecessor of Voyager; and
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 there are many such craft. And our mouths are just watering--after
 all, we don't have anything like than!
 S7.  In the next few years, one more remarkable project is supposed
 to be accomplished--the placement into space of a 2.5-meter space
 telescope which has been named the  "Space Telescope "  or  "Hubble
 Observatory."  It is a unique instrument; as soon as it is placed
 into orbit, astronomers will see much farther than they can with any
 powerful ground-based telescope; but the main thing is, they will see
 in a different way, because the telescope-has-a completely different
 wavelength reception range (not only the visible band, but also the
 ultraviolet band of the spectrum), and, in addition, gigantic angular
 accuracies are characteristic of it, inasmuch as the atmosphere does
 not interfere and does not create scintillations.
 58.  But this instrument has become a victim of the Shuttle project.
 The fact is that, in the last decade, the American space program has
 contained an innate flaw--all the space projects have been tied to a
 reusable craft, the shuttle. Thfs represented direct political
 interference (an example of command-and-administrative methods of
 leadership), the result of an unfortunate decision and the fact that
 the opinions of scientists and engineers were not taken into
 consideration. Now even the NASA administrators have found within
 themselves the courage to acknowledge the error (and what is more,
 they consider it to be history) and naw, along-with-the-~-reusarb3e-----------------
 ship, they are developing (and re-establishing) a whole range of
 ordinary, single-use launchers. But the space telescope and its
 mechanical interfaces have been constructed in such a fashion that
 they are all tied only to the shuttle, and, therefore, it is
 difficult to say exactly when the telescope will be placed into
 space. I can only note that our American colleagues have been
 extremely perturbed by the existing situation.
 59.  Several other projects are also in a similar situation. For
 example, Galileo, which involves the flight to Jupiter and .the
 release of a  "landing party!' into the planet's dense atmosphere. it
 is such a .pity that the American specialists did not tale advantage
 at the time of our suggestion that they order Soviet launch vehicles
 for their program. Now it is already too late, but, certainly, a year
 and a half to two years ago, it would have been possible to consider
 this.
 60.  [Correspondent] But why is it too late now?
 61.  [Sagdeyev] The reason is the very same one--the complicated
 mechanical interfaces which I spoke of in connection with the space
 telescope project, and, in the case of Galileo, very extensive
 changes are required, while the shuttle flights have already
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 recommenced.<sup>4<reset> But there are a whole series c.f other space
 projects--and not just scientific ones, but also commercial
 ones--which we are preparing in our country, in which the West could
 participate, and which would also be very beneficial foi them. This
 would be mutually advantageous. But, again, political considerations
 are interfering. For purely political reasons, the United States did
 not want to take advantage of the services of our space industry.
 62.  [Correspondent] You have listed the most interesting American
 space projects. But how do things stand in our country?
 63.  [Sagdeyev] We currently have ready two astronomical satellites
 (one may be launched in early 1989, and the other in mid-1989).
 Primarily, I am talking about the Gamma Observatory (a joint
 Soviet-French project). I.ts launch dates have already been postponed
 several times.  This is very disturbing to us, and it is with great
 reluctance that we are agreeing to the routine postponement of the
 dates about which Glavkosmos is reporting.  We are very hopeful that,
 this time, the launch date for the Gamma Observatory will not be
 postponed.
 64.  [Correspondent] Why are the dates being postponed?
 65.  [Sagdeyev] I think it is a result of the same basic problem from
 which our entire economy suffers--a lack-of ~esponsibli~~.
 66.  The second astronomical satellite is the Granat X-Ray
 Observatory. This project was born several years after Gamma, and,
 therefore, it is more modern and has instruments that are more
 precise and sensitive. Thfs is also a joint Soviet-French groject. I
 think that, if both observatories are placed into orbit without
 further delays, they will make their own mark in space science.  But
 the United States may surpass us, as they have ready the GRO [Gamma
 Ray Observatory] satellite for gamma ray astronomy; the weight of its
 scientific instrument package is four times greater than what is on
 the Gamma Observatory. It is also waiting for a launch vehicle--the
 shuttle is also-supposed to place it into orbit.
 b7.  [Correspondent] More and more countries. are beginning to develop
 their own space research. The establishment of international
 cooperatives in this field is no longer a rarity; you yourself have
 repeatedly mentioned this in our discussion. Is it not already time
 now to develop clear-cut international statutes on space?
 68.  [Sagdeyev] Regardless of what the international legal norms are,
 relations between the space powers will depend on the political goals
 which the partners pursue.  But frameworks within which these goals
 could be accomplished, reliable and firm, are undoubtedly necessary.
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 69.  Even now, there is a whole series of international legal norms
 (for example, the ban against placing nuclear weapons or other
 weapons of mass destruction into space). From my point .~f view, they
 need to be supplemented by a rejection of the militarization of space
 in the broad sense, i.e., also banning the testing of any weapon in
 space. A proposal has been made that a series of legal agreements be
 concluded regarding the use of outer space in the national economy or
 for economic purposes.
 70.  Thus, this field already has its own science--international
 space law. This science is developing and, from time to time, there
 are international conferences and seminars, and everyon~.: associated
 with space is interested in the development of this sphere of
 activity.
 71.  [Correspondent) Roald Zinnurovich, in our conversation, you have
 talked about those space projects which are either already in full
 swing or will be conducted in the next few years. But w;.at about a
 look into the future?  t~That kind of space projects do you foresee for
 the 22nd century (in fact, there are only 11 years left until the
 beginning of the 21st century)?
 72.  [Sagdeyev] It is a shame to admit it, but the realities of our
 practical economic affairs reduce the rol~of -the--leader~r?any
 scientific collective involved in space, be it the director of an
 institute or the head of a laboratory, to one of spending nearly 90
 of the time on the solution of immediate problems-- "forcing
 through "  orders, and not just such grandiose ones as an order for a
 satellite or a subsequent launch, but also for an instrument which is
 supposed to go up; getting the individual component assemblies which
 may or may not be produced by our industry--and all of-this
 represents an enormous amount of work. And, in the end, it turns aut
 that, in that set of everyday current affairs, which, with proper
 organization of the country's economic system, should nc,t eat up so
 much time, we are not in a position to even think about projects in
 the 21st century, let alone the 22nd century.
 73.  Nevertheless, I am hopeful that, in the 21st century, we will
 witness the free travels of man within the limits of the solar
 system, even though, true, it may not be us, but rather, our
 descendants. I think that, during the next approach of Halley's Comet
 in 2061, mankind will certainly succeed in unraveling its mystery.
 Certainly, it would be dangerous to land a manned spacecraft on the
 surface of the comet's core, but, who knows, it is possible that, by
 that time, protection against the dust streams will have been
 developed. In any case, taking a sample of material directly from the
 comet's core and delivering it to earth will turn out to be a readily
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 solvable problem for our descendants (and I do think that our
 children's children will live to see this event).
 74.  [Correspondent] What do you mean by the mystery of Halley's
 Comet?
 75.  [Sagdeyev] Today, we can not answer many of the questions about
 the physics of comets--for example, why this comet behaves so
 unusually. All it has to do is approach to a given distance from the
 sun, and then, over the course of several weeks, it continues to
 "stew"  with tremendous intensity. Such thermal  "memory "  of a
 comet is retained for a long time. Inasmuch as we know the heat
 capacity of fts matter, we can make approximate estimations, but,
 based on them, such an evaporation process is not supposed to last so
 long. Meanwhile, the comet continues to  "stew,"  and much more
 intensely than it did at the same distance from the sun during its
 approach. The nature of such asymmetry is not understood. Evidently,
 there occur on the surface of the comet's core some unknown physical
 and chemical processes which we have not yet been able to investigate
 fully.
 76.  And finally, there is the matter of the comet's origin. It has
 yet to be solved. In order to do this, it will first of all be
 necessary to deliver cometary matter to earth.
 77.  [Correspondent] The next question extends beyond the framework
 of our present conversation. Keeping in mind_the social and political
 events and the process which are taking place in our country, what is
 your understanding of democratization and glasnost in science and
 how, in your opinion, should the USSR Academy of Sciences reorganize
 its own work?
 78.  [Sagdeyev] It seems to me that our academy has its own unique
 and special place in the worldwide family of scientific societies.
 Once elected into the academy, its members receive such a bouquet of
 privileges as is not possessed by a member of any other academy in
 the world. I am not talking simply about additional material goods;
 in the final analysis, the processes which are going on in the
 country (including the inevitable inflation) are gradua:.ly
 diminishing this difference and, later, it will be reduced even more,
 What I am talking about is that, in addition to the respect, which is
 also enjoyed by members of foreign academies (in fact, election
 itself is an act of recognition of their services), the members of
 our academy receive levers for influencing scientific policy as well.
 As a rule, the academicians head up institutes and, if cne of the
 institutes is unable to secure for itself an academician as the
 director, it simply considers itself a poor relative. Very
 frequently, regardless of the scientific merits of the director of
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 such an institute, an attempt is made during .the regular elections to
 the academy to  "correct"  the situation. Moreover, influence on the
 scientific policy is achieved through the USSR Academy of Sciences'
 Sections, Departments and Problems Councils, which are headed up by
 academicians. As a result, thousands of first-rate
 scientists--doctors and candidates of sciences, those who, because of
 an unfortunate twist of fate, did not manage to become members of the
 academy (and there are many such cases)--have, to a large extent,
 have been excluded from the actual process of conducting scientific
 policy.
 79.  Therefore, democratization in science, first and foremost,
 should liberate the gigantic creative potential of the: main group of
 people who create science.
 80.  [Correspondent] What, specifically, do you suggest be done?
 81.  Possible measures are being discussed rather widely and the
 president of the USSR Academy of Sciences, G. I. Marchuk, has
 repeatedly spoken out about this, particularly in the press. There
 was talk about greater and greater autonomy for the departments and
 about transferring authority from the level of the presidium and the
 sections to the level of the departments. This idea immediately
 received support, but it became clear rather quickly that, if the
 departments concentrate _ all the absolute aut             awn------- ------
 hands, then, in the final analysis, it will be a restoration of the
 ministerial main administrations which are being condemned currently.
 82.  At the present time, the process of revitalizing the institutes
 is going on; they should receive greater autonomy.  Therefore, in my
 opinion, the next step is the institutes' use of the obtained rights
 and genuine democratization inside the institutes. Many different
 measures exist for bringing this about. First of all, elections of
 the institute's director and the members of the academic council. It
 should be said right off that I am against these elections being
 turned into an uncontrolled veche [ancient Russian public assembly].
 Because then the opinions of people who are not competent and who are
 somewhere on the periphery of science are, in essence, equal to the
 opinions of the specialists, and, as a result, the election process
 (just like any other) becomes uncontrolled.  But, of course, the
 voice of each scientific associate must be heard.
 83.  Furthermore, I feel that the democratization of the institute's
 scientific affairs should include the further transfer of authority
 (including financial and economic) to the laboratories, which should
 become the basic unit in the scientific community. It is necessary to
 conduct a search for new forms for financing the scientific
 collectives on competitive bases and to develop competitiveness
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 between them. And then our scientists, many of whom have worldwide
 recognition, will actually be able to influence scientific policy in
 this country, and it will not be controlled by only a narrow, private
 circle of academy members. It is then that our science will actually
 take a real step forward.
 84.  At the same time, of course, it is also necessary to improve
 greatly the material conditions in which science is developing.
 Because, granting a laboratory autonomy without giving it the
 capability of acquiring, for example, a computer, is the same as 3ust
 doing nothing.
 85.  [Correspondent] You were a delegate to the 19th party
 conference. What made the greatest. impression on you at that most
 important event in our country's affairs last year?
 86.  [Sagdeyev] The speech by M. S. Gorbachevy and for the
 scientist--especially that section of his report which was devoted to
 science. At that time, I got the impression that, in that report on
 the problems and needs of our science, everything was said that I
 myself wanted to say.  Perhaps, to some degree, the laci~luster
 reaction of the party conference delegates to the speeches by the
 leaders of our academy can be accounted for by the fact that it was
 difficult to add anything new.
 87.  But what really annoyed me was the offhand manner in which many
 delegates  "wiped their feet"  on science. As an example, T will
 refer to the speech by the general director of the Ivanovo
 Machine-Tool Production Association imeni the 50th Anniversary of the
 USSR, V. P. Kabaidze. I would even say that, in some seise, such a
 style would be more appropriate at a Gennadiy Khazanov concert. With
 such an attitude toward science, even the organizational and economic
 talent which Comrade Kabaidze undoubtedly possesses wiles not help our
 industry to move Soviet technology to the leading edge.
 8$.  I understand what the roots of such an attitude toward science
 are. Indeed, over the course of many decades, particularly during the
 period of stagnation, our science was a  "packet"  science--nobody
 thought about us until, basically, it was necessary to substantiate,
 for example, a routine decision about a new general assault on
 nature.  And now, a reverse wave has emerged. Tt is completely
 legitimate to question the moral and social integrity of the
 scientist. It is no accident that discussions centering on specific
 facts--for example, the polluting of Lake Baykal or the notorious
 diversion of rivers--and on the names of the specific scientists who
 personally participated in those sadly familiar decisions are not
 fading away.
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 89.  In many respects, we ourselves are to blame for the fact that a
 loss of interest in science and skepticism-with respect to it are now
 being observed. And here, an enormous role belongs to the promotion
 of the achievements of science, since science and its importance are
 served by the mass media's resources. One idea is to publish a
 special USSR Academy of Sciences newspaper; the president of the USSR
 Academy of Sciences made such a proposal at the conference.
 90.  [Correspondent] Are you talking about one more popular science
 publication, of which, it would seem, there are quite enough, or
 something totally new?
 91.  [Sagdeyev] The basic aim is to make all the scientists and all
 the members of the scientific community feel that they are one family
 and to see to it that feedback is faster and not as slog. as, for
 example, the feedback with the currently published magazines. This is
 why it is necessary to have, if not a daily paper, then at least a
 weekly paper.<sup>5<reset>
 92.  But even that sort of newspaper will not solve the problem of
 the promotion of the achievements and role of science among the broad
 masses, since the scientists will basically be the ones reading it.
 Here also, I support the idea expressed recently by Academician L. I.
 Abalkin: it is necessary that one of our major newspapers, for
 example, PRAVDA, once a week, set aside a wile page  or sc
 is possible that IZVESTIYA would be better suited for this purpose
 (but not SOVET5KAYA ROSSIYA!).
 93.  In general, it should be noted with regret that there was
 recently a page in some publications for para-science.  But it is not
 new. I remember, about 12 years ago, I gave a popular 1Peture in
 Gosplan's large lecture hall. An enormous hall, and hundreds of
 workers. Hy speech was devoted to the use of the achievements of
 cosmonautics in the national economy. At the end of the speech, they
 began to put questions to me--orally and in the form of notes. There
 were about 20 notes, and they were all devoted to one topic--flying
 saucers! I opened one after another, expecting a question actually
 relating to the theme of my speech. But when I opened the last one
 and saw that it contained that very same question, I could not take
 it anymore and shouted in a fit of temper:  "Now that I know what
 kind of space research interests Gosplan's workers the most, I
 understand why we have such a mess in the national economy!"
 Academician M. V. Keldysh laughed for a long time when I told him
 about it all, but then he noted:  "But you really acted very
 carelessly--the financing of scientific research depends on them."
 94.  I think that, back then, we put ourselves too often in the
 position of the junior partner, and we did not courageously defend
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 the interests of science. I hope that those times are gone for good.
 95.  [Correspondent] In conclusion, Roald Zinnurovich, all that
 remains is for me to thank you for an interesting and substantive
 interview. I hope that PRIRODA's readers will have the chance to hear
 from you again and again about the achievements and problems of space
 research--one of the youngest and most promising areas of science.
 97.  1. L. S. Marochnik, G. A. Skuridin,  "Rendezvous With Halley's
 Comet,"  PRIRODA, 1982, No 2, pp 2-18; V. M. Balebanov, V. I. Moroz,
 L. M. Mukhin,  "The First Stage of the Vega Mission: the Study of the
 Venusian Surface,"  PRIRODA, 1985, No 6, pp 3-12.
 98.  2. Yu. N. Yefremov,  "The Explosion of a Supernova in the Large
 Magellanic Cloud,"  PRIRODA, 1987, No 6, pp 102-104.
 99.  3. Communications with the Phobos 1 vehicle have nit been
 re-established. (Editor's note)
 100.  4. On 15 November 1988, our country also accomplished the
 launching of a reusable ship, Buran. It was placed into orbit by the
 Energiya rocket, and the landing was accomplished in an automated
 mode.  (Editor's note)                  ---~  - -----
 101.  5. Beginning in 1989, the weekly NAUKA I VYSSHAYA SHKOLA
 [Science and Higher Education] will be published. (Editor's note)

