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 SLIM Moscow TASS International Service in Russian 1222 GMT 26 Apr 90
 SUBJ TAKE ALL--Gorbachev Urals Visit
 Full Text Superzone of Message
 1    [Excerpts] Sverdlovsk, 26 April (TASS special correspondent)-- We are
 transmitting the full text of an account of Mikhail Gorbachev's stay in
 the Urals.
 2    What needs to be done to live better, to radically change the
 socioeconomic situation in the country?  This question arose repeatedly
 during the meetings of M.S. Gorbachev, USSR president, general secretary
 of the CPSU Central Committee, in labor collective.: in the Urals.  Today
 is the second day of Mikhail Sergeyevich's stay in Sverdlovsk.
 3    Yesterday evening at the works management of Uralmash he had a meeting,
 lasting hours, with workers,-engineering and techn~cal staff,
 representatives of the labor collective council, and with the party aktiv
 of the association.  Since the auditorium could not accommodate everyone
 who wanted to take part in the frank, controversial conversation, its
 progress was relayed to the works square where many hundreds of Uralmash
 people had gathered.
 4    I have a tremendous desire to have a talk with you in a calm, businesslike
 atmosphere, M.S. Gorbachev said, opening the meeting.  What is worrying
 us?  The fact that the Urals, which has done, is doi~ and_will d_o so much         _
 for the country--this mighty region is now experiencing great distortions
 and strains in its development.  Not only production and economic ones but
 also social ones.  And this is already spilling out into certain moods.
 .The situation is worrying us.
 5    These last few hours of contacts and conversations with the Uralmash
 people shows that the correct information is reaching us.  People are
 confirming what was already known to us, which gives rise to a certain
 disquiet.  In any case, one can evidently speak of certain deformations
 having taken place in the development of the urals' production forces.  On
 the one hand, a mighty cadre and scientific potential has been created,
 still capable of performing further great tasks, and on the other hand
 there are problems of ecology and social tension.
 6    M.S. Gorbachev asked the Uralmash people to express their ideas on this
 point.
 7    Our meeting and my arrival in your Oblast, he continued, precisely
 coincides with a very important stage in the development of the economic
 reform.
 8    What we have gone through is like a preparatory stage of that reform, and
 we have come to understand the country in which we live.  Perhaps in the
 main we have understood its illnesses which, along with achievements,
 undoubtedly exist.  We have tried many approaches in the economic sphere,
 new methods of management.  Some have succeeded, others not, and here and
 there we have simply miscalculated.
 9    But at all events this was the period which, especially when we are
 talking about one of the greatest changes in the country's history, we
 have passed through, and now we have the foundations of a legal order, and
 Approve  for Release     ~a t
 ~~ ~~
 000175690
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 economic experience.  We have acquired experience; we have started
 thinking differently and we have started talking to each other
 differently.  An environment has come about in which one can solidly and
 radically begin economic reform.
 10   Therefore talk is important, from these angles too.  What is more, I see
 anxiety.  Tt has appeared both in the press and here.  How are we going to
 live?  And in general it touches precisely upon what we are going to do in
 order to live better, so that the situation should change for the better.
 Evidently people's patience is already at its limit.  So from that point
 of view the trip is very important for me.
 11   We have conducted two USSR Presidential Councils, joint sessions of the
 USSR Council of the Federation and the Presidential Council.  We will
 return to that again, and then, as they say, we will go to the people in
 order to weigh everything up thoroughly.  Such a change needs to be made
 by everybody, together, if we understand each other.  Sharp turns are
 calculated in what is envisaged to be proposed to ;.he working people, to
 the country.  But we need to do things in such a way that we travel this
 road with the least losses.
 12   I.I. Stoganov, general director of the Uralmash association who spoke next
 gave a short description of the enterprise and told of the tasks and
 problems facing the collective.  [passage omitted: Stroganov quoted
 supporting free market, listing things which hinder progress to that aim]
 13   LD2604205290TAKE1
 14   [Excerpts] (Stroganov continues) Under the existing state of affairs and
 with the very low rents the association sustains losses each year
 amounting to 7 million rubles [R] on housing alone.  Children's preschool
 establishments and a number of other f~^;~;*idc 9re '~-~-c_~^.~icing,---too.u.~~
 have 45,000 apartments on our books, but today there are 12,000 people fn
 the housing line, because we build housing but are also obliged to give it
 to other people who do not work at "Uralmash."
 15   (Gorbachev) Wherein lies the sickness, and not just that of "Uralmash,"
 but of the other works in the Urals economic region too?
 16   (I.I. Stroganov) We made a major mistake when we created additional jobs;
 for a time we forgot about the person, about the social base.  The
 regional sickness seems to lie in precisely this.  And second.  All of us
 together, we made a real mess of agriculture.  It's the time not to give
 help, but for everyone to restructure themselves fundamentally in this
 way...
 17   (Gorbachev) I noticed that labor productivity is?nevertheless quite decent
 at your enterprise.  Is this linked with modernization of production,
 price formation or with the intensification of labor?
 18   (Stroganov) Unfortunately. with intensification...
 19   (Gorbachev) When you say that according to your calculations the
 changeover to the new economic relations could ruin machine- building,
 which calculations do you have in mind?
 20   (Stroganov) These calculations have been done on the basis of the
 deductions that are being planned: 30 percent to the Union budget, 27
 percent to the Republican budget, plus new types of payment for land,
 electricity and labor resources.  If .you add all oL- this together, then we
 are left with less than 30 percent.  That is to say that nothing remains
 for forming capital funds.  And this is a key question for us.
 21   (Gorbachev) Do you compare your products with similar competitive models?
 What is the difference between them?
 000175690
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 22   (Stroganov) By way of example I'Il say that our quarry excavator is
 absolutely competitive with foreign machines of the same class.  We supply
 this equipment to Soviet customers for R90,000: There hs never been an
 instance when we have sold each excavator abroad for less than 600,000.
 [passage omitted: G.N. Bashilov, director of the heavy machine-building
 scientific research institute, speaks on the new atmosphere, the current
 reliability of Uralmash output, the Ioss of designers and technologists to
 the cooperatives]
 23   A.S. Osintsev, deputy general director of the Association for Economics,
 touched on the question of how one should asess the monopoly of
 "Uralmash," he said.  We are a long way away from becoming a monopoly, for
 the level of our output depends not so much upon ourselves as it does in
 many cases upon a mass of component manufactures and actions by suppliers.
 That is the main reason why we are behind competitors on the world market.
 [sentence distinct]
 24   The economist devoted a significant part of his speech to the problems of
 leasing relations at the enterprise.  In part, he cited the example of
 people refusing to go over to leasing, believing that it would not be
 advantageous for them under existing circumstances.
 25   M.S. Gorbachev asked the deputy director to answer the question: What, in
 his view, causes society's concern when the question arises of the
 radicalization of reforms and of us having to take consistent steps toward
 a market economy?  What has frightened people and caused alarm?
 26   It seems to me, the economist replied, that apprehensions arise as a
 result of the losses without which there can be no shift to a market
 economy.
 27   LD2704080790TAKE2                  --             _         ~          ____
 28   [Excerpts] It cannot avoid falls in the volumes of production.  This is
 the first thing.  And, second, we probably will not be able to avoid
 unemployment.  I believe that these two factors are the chief ones.  They,
 most of all, are making people worried.
 29   (M.S. Gorbachev) But if it is a case of having to rake this path, and I
 have understood from the speeches here and from numerous conversations
 during the visit to the enterprise, that everyone realizes that this is
 the path we have to take, then it is necessary for everything to be
 thought through and weighed up beforehand, for everything to be discussed.
 The essence of matters should be known not only at the center, it should
 be understood not only by economic personnel.  Ordinary people and work
 collectives should understand precisely what it is all about.
 30   We do not wish to rush headlong into the market, and such an approach is
 unacceptable to us.  The transfer should be carried out on the basis of a
 considered policy.  We must, particularly in the initial stage, have a
 grip on this process and regulate it by means of a price mechanism.
 31   Social protection measures must also be provided for.  Finally, it is
 necessary to think of the fact that a process of regrouping, and possibly
 a laying off, of the working force will take place in manufacturing.  But
 our cooperatives are only just coming into being, the service sector is
 not developed, just as everything connected to trade is not developed.
 For example we have enormous loads on our retail trade capacity, whereas
 the world has already gone through all that.  Nearly always they have a
 ratio where the number of people employed outside of manufacturing is
 greater than the number working in material manufacturing.  In other
 words, everything here is stil the other way around.
 000175690
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 32   Basically everything -- is in material production.  So, we still have much
 work, we can employ people.  But a system of re-training is needed, a plan
 of action is needed.  This must be understood by everyone!  I am convinced
 that in our country today unemployment occurs where we do not think things
 out, do not work things out. We shall keep our promise.  When we are ready
 to talk with people, when we have thought everything through, we shall
 present well-thought out measures, we shall submit them to society's
 judgement.  They will have to be worked out in each region, in each labor
 collective.
 33   From the hall the request was heard for an opinion on the latest
 publications in the press about the so-called economics of shock therapy
 Polish-fashion.
 34   (M.S. Gorbachev) So the press has frightened people?  From this hall, from
 Sverdlovsk, the whole press must be told, and the journlists who are here
 present must learn and tell others: In these matters particularly
 well-considered judgements are needed, publications. must .not carry only
 the element of alarm.
 35   The speech by A.R. Sagalovich, head of mechanical workshop No.  15,
 touched on an important aspect of radicalization o. the reform.  In my
 opinion, he said, enterprises are entering the market economy by various
 paths.  This means it is necessary to take into account the state of the
 basic assets of each specific plant.  Some have mope worn assets and other
 newer ones.                           ,
 36   Today there is a leasehold law. But often, when the division of money in
 the collective begins according to the coefficient of the share of work,
 the system does not work.  Where people are good the system really works.
 Where the collective has not taken -shapedtdoes__nox_ oger~te~     ~_._._
 37   The underestimation of the role of managers of collectives is connected on
 this plane.  Yes, there is a struggle against the administrative-command
 system, but on the production level a paradox arises: I, for example, have
 not been able to find a section chief for six months.  No one wants it, no
 one wishes to work as a foreman.  Discipline in such a situation breaks
 down.  Even if you put a militiaman before the .shift ends.  Tension in
 relations between the workers and management is growing.
 38   In order to advance further, the question needs to be asked regarding the
 role of the manager, the organizer of production ar~d the specialists, and
 regarding the responsibility for the course of economic reform and his
 role in the course of that reform.
 39   LD27040$2190TAKE3
 40   [Excerpts] (M.S. Gorbachev) And don't you feel remote tremors in
 connection with reform and a change in the situation: That it is already
 necessary to prove one's right and entitlement by competence,
 conscientiousness, and the capability to work better?  For soon everybody
 will have to prove this.  Does not such a way of putting things have an
 effect on discipline, on responsibility, and on conscientiousness?
 41   (A.P. Sagalovich) it does not.  Well, maybe to a curtain degree.  Of
 course much is connected to the payment for labor, but this system is not
 working yet.  My opinion is that at the level of the top manager of a
 structural subsection, a factory, for example, it 's possible to manage
 somehow in the old fashion.  But further work must be carried out in
 accordance with same other integral system.
 42   I would like to share my thoughts on the problems of price-formation, the
 workshop chief continued.  It is, of course, difficult for me to judge on
 000175690
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 a countrywide scale, but I think that one of the criteria for limiting the
 monopoly of enterprises must be a limitation of their profitability.  Such
 an experience exists abroad.  And it is not worth us pursuing high prices.
 43   Yu.F. Chebotarev, head of the social-cultural-service directorate of
 "Uralmash," devoted his speech to the difficult problems of his work.  In
 part he raised the question of this area's unprofitability.  As an exmaple
 the cost of a square meter of new housing was brought up.  It increases
 with each passing year, but the payment per square meter is fixed as
 previously.  They have tried to touch on this question but have received a
 decisive rebuff from the public.
 44   (M.S. Gorbachev) How much housing do you have and what is the subsidy for
 maintaining it?
 45   (Yu.E Chebotarev) The subsidy from the works is almost R7 million...
 46   (M.S. Gorbachev) Obviously many people would agree to take apartments as
 their own property?
 47   (Yu.F. Chebotarev) There is such an initiative, however the right of such
 a transferral has not yet been given to the local soviets.
 48   (M.S. Gorbachev) But this concerns your housing -- departmental..
 49   (Yu.F. Chebotarev) Departmental -- yes it's departmental, however there
 are many complicated issues here.
 50   (M.S. Gorbachev) But this is a matter of handing them over for free.  The
 apartments are received, people live according to the norm.  We are not
 talking about those who are wafting.  Their situation, of course, must be
 improved.  But those whose housing corresponds to the norms should have it
 given to them as their own property, for free.  And let them maintain
 their apartments themselves and pay for this themselves.  For comrades,
 when we say that rents here are low --this--is-              r-approach:--------
 They reduced wages -- and at the expense of this they made housing cheap.
 51   Naturally, this does not concern people in need, poor people.  The state
 is bound to take care of them.  But as regards the basic mass it is
 possible to act in this way.  But then, when someone realizes that it is
 his own apartment, then he will maintain it in a different way.  And the
 housing stock wil be in a completely different condition.  Especially our
 entrances.
 52   Look at what the West does.  There wages decide everything.  Public stock
 is very small.  On the whole people live on their wages.  They get, say,
 2,000 dollars and immediately 30 percent go on housing and 11 percent on
 taxes.  Forty odd percent of their earnings has already gone.
 53   We are used to: This is free, that's free -- and people do not see their
 wages anyway.  Now if they were to receive them in full and pay for
 everything themselves, then it would be a completely different matter.
 54   Apart from this, what does receiving housing as property mean?  It means:
 People have received property.  One person, two, many.  That is, market
 relations appear in society.
 55   So far this does not exist here.  But the question must probably be
 considered properly.
 56   LD2704083290TAKE4
 57   [Excerpts] A.A. Tokminov, leader of a mixed-skill ;kompleksnyy] team,
 recounted that at "Uralmash" the workers' initiative, labor effort and
 fervor had dropped sharply recently.  I am experiencing this in my own
 brigade and in public work at the scientific and technical council, he
 continued.  If we stop the working man -- the producer of all things of
 value -- from working well, then it will be very difficult to arouse him
 000175690
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 in the future and get him interested in something.  At present the workers
 who work well, quite honestly, do not understand who benefits by the
 creation of artificial obstacles to prevent them from working even better
 and to higher standards, and receiving worthy remuneration for this.
 5$   (M.S. Gorbachev) I want to support your concern.  The concept of producing
 more and better in conditions of economic reform by a smaller number is a
 key one.  We have been throttled by egalitarianism [uravnilovka].  If we
 don't properly value the labor of the worker, collective farm worker,
 teacher, doctor and engineer, but keep on assessing it according to the
 scale and the rate, we will not move forward.  I h,:ve been told of cases
 where surgeons, for instance, cannot carry out an important operation
 without high-grade nurses.  But a surgeon does not possess any rights to
 encourage a specialist who, in his opinion, is worthy of a professor's
 wage.
 59   And what happens: Such a nurse leaves the team and the whole cycle of
 complex operations falls apart.  There is a similar picture everywhere.
 60   In science also remuneration is according to ranks and degrees --- seniors,
 juniors and scientific assistants.  But the contribution to the common
 cause over a year, over the last five years, which a man has contributed
 to, hardly bothers anyone.  But if his work was noticed because, according
 to the contract, some amount was received thanks to this, then in any case
 it was divided equally.
 61   Let us agree: It is necessary to initiate a resolute struggle against
 egalitarianism [uravnilovkoy], beginning with ever- workplace and every
 working operation.  Otherwise we will deprive ourselves of the opportunity
 of constantly deriving benefit for society from the energy of talented
 people.   [passage omitted: Having thanked-t#e--USSR--president---in--the-name__
 of the collective for visiting "Uralmash," P.N. Tobolov, chief of a
 workshop, drew M.S.  Gorbachev's attention to the poor labor conditions of
 metalworkers]
 62   A very great number of women are already working at our enterprise, V.F.
 Boyankin, a smith from section Number 37, noted.  They are working on a
 sliding rota, meaning that it includes night shifts.  What does a woman
 who works on a sliding rota feel?  You can already imagine, the worker
 added, for you have seen our furnaces.
 63   (M.S. Gorbachev) In general, the situation of women, above all, is an
 indicator of the fact that our society needs changes.  Let us acknowledge
 this honestly.  Take just the USSR Presidential Co>ncil -- there are no
 women there.  Take the other leading bodies -- it's the same dismal
 picture.  But on the other hand, they are working in places where there
 shouldn't be any women at all, in hot workshops, o~. a three-shift system.
 [passage omitted: opinions of labor collective council chairman Bogdanov;
 war and labor veterans' chairman Yerykalov; Oblast executive committee
 chairman Rossel]
 64   LD2704084190TAKE5
 65   (Excerpts] Summing up the results of the meeting M.S. Gorbachev said: Here
 in the Urals huge masses of people are concentrated, who are dealing with
 tasks in the economic, scientific and defense spheres that are of
 importance for the country.  And that role which Sverdlovsk and its labor
 collectives are playing, and your anxieties and concern, all this has made
 us come here.  I think I as the president and the general secretary of the
 CPSU Central Committee, and other members of the Soviet leadership ought
 to pay more attention to the Urals.
 000175690
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 66  .This conference and the conversations with the workers of "Uralmash" are
 of great importance for me.  We have reached a stage in perestroyka when
 one has to take decisions that are of very great importance for the
 destiny of the country.  And what people are thinking, the way they are
 assessing the situation and the thigns they consider necessary to be done,
 all this is very important now.
 67   You obviously realize that I have a position of my own and my own
 convictions.  And nevertheless through all the yews of my life and work I
 have believed in the following method: Any decision ought to be checked
 agianst the opinion of the working people, no matter how one assesses it
 oneself.  This is a mast important condition for a policy to be right and
 for fewer losses and mistakes to be made.
 68   When we began perestroyka we saw our society in one light.  Having gone
 more deeply into it, we began to understand that minor repairs alone,
 repainting, a change in wallpaper, will not do.  Changes were necessary
 everywhere and very serious ones -- in,the economy, in the federation, in
 the party, in the soviets, in culture and in the whole spiritual sphere,
 with the aim of ennobling society and creating normal living conditions
 for people.
 69   We have now approached the stage of adopting major decisions.  It was for
 this reason that I decided to come to you, knowing the potential of the
 Urals -- human, intellectual, scientific and cultural.  I see this meeting
 as support and interpret your opinions fn relation to our policies and to
 the actions of the center as an desire to attrack the leadership's
 attentions, so that it does not overlook anything serious.
 70   It is true that people have not been able to do without demagogy either,
 in several conversations.  But demagsguesalso---~~kz-asp-o~democr~ey--and-  -
 even more so than we do.  It should, however be the other way around: That
 all sensible people in our society should make use of glasnost and
 democracy and genuinely take power into their own hands.
 71   The party will not be able to achieve the implementation of its policy and
 to march in the vanguard of change unless it bases itself upon the working
 class.  I am greatly alarmed by the fact that 12 workers resigned from the
 party today.  I would not say: It's the nature of the present time; some
 come others leave.  I would ask both the works party committee and
 ordinary party and works comrades to meet with then and try to understand
 what the matter is.  The country's leadership is pinning its hopes on an
 active contribution by workers into all our affairs.  And not merely at
 the machine, although I agree with the comrades why say that it's time we
 finished with meetings and discussions and started active and productive
 work.  The discussians will probably continue, but the center of gravity
 ought to be shifted to implementing policy in all -pheres.  And we are
 counting on the support of the working class everywhere.
 72   It is a pity that at the elections of USSR and Russian Federation people's
 deputies, and even at those to local soviets, many workers have been
 squeezed out.  To put it frankly: the soviets will only lose from it.
 Perhaps they should think of setting up consultative bodies which the most
 front-ranking and active workers, faithful to the Cause of the renewal,
 would join.  Secondly: Give an account to labor collectives of all they
 do.  Without such a link, neither the soviets will work as they should,
 not will the workers be satisfied.
 73   We must introduce this kind of a 'correction coefficient,' and also think
 about why many workers withdrew their candidacies and refused to
 000175690
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 participate in the pre-election struggle, and ask ourselves whether it was
 because it was taking place in such a form that th;s was discouraging from
 them.  One must learn from this.  One mustn't allow the soviets, which to
 some extent, I would say, no longer fully represent the working class and
 peasantry, to find themselves cut off from life ana from people's real
 concerns.
 74   LD2704090790TAKE6                                        -
 75   [Excerpts] My main point in my answer on the role of the working class in
 the current crucial time is this: If the working class remains apart from
 the political processes, or at least does not Lake up an active role,
 perestroyka will lose, we will be marking time.  I want us to understand
 this.  More opportunities for the working class to take a more active role
 have come into being today.  Both the trade unions, the labor collectives
 councils and other social and economic mechanisms need to be used so that
 the working class may influence everything which now occurs.
 76   Further, M.S. Gorbachev answered questions from Uralmash workers.
 Answering a question about individual housing construction, he stressed
 the necessity to meet people's initiatives halfway in all ways possible
 and to give them the maximum help_including.the use of enterprises'
 resources.  Areal opportunity now exists~to accelerate housing
 construction and I have several proposals on this count.  I would ask
 local bodies to concern themselves with the allocation of land for
 individual housing construction.  It is also necessary to give land for
 gardens and vegetable gardens so that those who wish to, may grow all that
 they need for themselves.  This has both a social and educative
 significance, and a significance in relation to foodstuffs.  A man on the
 earth, communing with the earth, is -a quite-d-if?er-end .ma:.=   -     --
 77   M.S. Gorbachev read out the following question: "In my view, the open
 letter of the CPSU Central Committee on consolidation based on principle,
 contradicts the principle expounded in your Lenin speech.  This principle
 is closer to me as an ordinary party member.  I know your style fairly
 well thanks to the mass media and it seemed to me ghat you personally did
 not participate in the composition of the open letter.  Is this so?"
 78   I will speak bluntly--I did participate, was the answer.  I think,
 comrades, we should take into account the concern, to which Communists'
 letters to the Central Committee serve as testimony.  There are messages
 from your works among them as well.  Gatherings and conferences express
 anxiety about the party's fate and about preparing properly for the
 congress so that it can cope with the tasks being placed before it, both
 from the point of view of the aims of perestroyka ztnd from the point of
 view of strengthening and enhancing the vanguard role of the CPSU.
 79   We have taken this in and have tried, as far as possible to express it in
 the platform and the draft rules.  Perhaps a little more work was needed
 but the documents were published so that communists could discuss them,
 express critical remarks and go to the congress with good ideas and
 proposals which would strengthen the party and give: it a new, attractive
 look.  And as well, so that communists might feel themselves to be really
 in charge in the party.
 80   It may be that as yet not everything is working out, but the direction,
 the line we have taken is the correct one.  We have invited Communists to
 come forward with alternative platforms.  We are for freedom of thought,
 for the juxtaposition of points of view.  We have published the
 "Democratic Platform," then the "Platform For a Marxist Party"--go ahead,
 000175690
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 comrade Communists, and discuss them!
 81   But why were we obliged to write that letter, against what?  Communists
 were worried by the fact that, instead of consolidation, to all intents
 and purposes work had begun to split the party.  This was no longer the
 struggle of opinions, the juxtaposition of points of view, the search for
 the real truth, no longer consolidation but rather an attempt on the eve
 of the congress--or perhaps at the Congress itself--to split the party.
 At this responsible and crucial stage in the development of the country,
 the state and society, we cannot allow the force which is the CPSU to be
 put in jeopardy.  So the letter is directed against splitters, not against
 those who criticize the platform.  Incidentally, this document was
 distributed to ali Central Committee members and to first secretaries of
 kray and oblast committees.  They contributed their remarks, and then the
 question arose: If someone criticizes the platform and the draft rules,
 what then?  Should this comrade be removed from the party?  If that were
 the case we would have had to start with the first secretary of the CPSU
 Moscow City Committee Yu.A. Prokofyev, given that ~e voiced some. serious
 critical remarks as far back as the Politburo meeting on the draft of the
 platform.  Of course not!
 82   We are talking about people who are heading toward a split.  At the
 present responsible stage the party cannot fulfil its vanguard role if it
 is dragged into a struggle among factions.  We are for the consolidation
 of all forces -- those on the "Democratic Platform" and those who have
 proposed the "Marxist Platform." In juxtaposing all points of view things
 .must be done in such a way that the congress is abe to fulfil its task.
 83   LD2704091990TAKE7
 84   [Excerpts) Replying to a question about--possible-versions of the_
 development of events in Lithuania, M.S. Gorbachev said: We hope to arrive
 at a political resolution of the problem.  But I must say to you and to
 the country that we are up.against a leadership which is displaying
 adventurism and is speculating on democracy.  For, even for the simplest
 matters proposals are prepared which are subjected to preliminary
 examination in the soviets and are then put forwaru for people to discuss
 and it is only after this that decisions are made.  Bere, however, in
 deciding a basic question of the fate of the republic and of the people
 living in it, a question affecting the whole population of our
 multinational state -- the deputies assembled at night, raised their hands
 and made the decision.  This does not come within any framework of
 democracy.
 85   I think that the Third USSR Congres of Peoples Deputies acted correctly,
 and we -- the president and the government -- have only the mandate of the
 Congress: The constitutional structure should be restored.  It is
 necessary to return to the position which existed in the republic on 10
 March, and examine the question after this.  Otherwise, what will happen?
 What will happen to the people who wish to return to their own republics
 anon-Lithuanians -- there are about 700,000)?  What will be the fate of
 the Belorussian lands?  Further for 500 years Klaipeda was in German hands
 and as a result of the war was transferred to the USSR and, insofar as
 Lithuania was a part of the USSR it was united with that republic.  Today
 the people of Kaliningrad are putting forward the proposal to unite
 Klaipeda with their oblast.
 86   Finally, how is the oil, raw material, etc. to be paid for?  In foriegn
 currency?  We shall discuss that, too.  For the "divorce process" what
 000175690
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 will be needed is first of all a referendum.  It is necessary to find out
 what people will say, and the Lithuanians are a very sensible people, a
 cultured and educated people.  Let them give some thought as to which path
 to follow.  In my opinion there is an increasing number of sober voices
 there now.  People's thirst for an independent [samostoyatelnyyj
 Lithuanian state can also be satisfied within the framework of the
 relations of the federation.  The important thing :s to tackle all of
 these questions in a normal and constitutional form.
 87   Thus, we shall not retreat from the mandate of the Third USSR Congres of
 Peoples Deputies.
 88   A question has come in about the islands of the Kuriles ridge.  We have no
 superfluous land.  We shall adhere to the helsinki positions -- the
 recognition of postwar realities, including the inviolability of borders.
 There was the following question, too: Does the government study such
 phenomena as unidentified flying objects.  The presidnet replied that as
 far as he was aware there exist scientific collectives engaged in studying
 such phenomena.
 90   This question came in: Why, in your opinion, does Comrade Yeltsin enjoy
 great authority in the Urals and at Uralmash, but not with the
 government?"
 91   M.S. Gorbachev replied: I have already been asked in the streets what my
 attitude is to B.N. Yeltsin.  There was the time when I invited the first
 secretary of the Sverdlovsk Oblast party committee and Central Committee
 member to transfer to work in the Central Committee.  We needed somebody
 in charge of the construction department, and Comrade Yeltsin, besides his
 party experience, had experience of construction, for he is a builder by
 education.  He agreed and got actively---irvo-l-ved--ln-that-werk:---Them where
 the need to tackle the question of the first secretary of the Moscow
 committee came up, the choice was for Boris Nikolayevich.  I presented him
 and recommended him on behalf of the Politburo and tried to support him.
 He set about the job ardently at first, but events developed in such a way
 that the situation in the city party organization grew tense.  In the
 summer, when I was on holiday, he raised sharply the question of his
 resignation from that post.  I said: I'll come back and we'll have a chat.
 My afm was simple: to cool passions, so that Comrade Yeltsin could
 continue working.  But Boris Nikolayevich did not heed this advise and
 insisted on being relieved, since he did not want to work in such an
 atmosphere.  I do not think he had sufficient arguments.  It was some kind
 of whim, strictly speaking, and that is just how the Central Committee saw
 it.  But you have read all this -- we published the story of this matter
 in full.
 92   I was convinced that he had to be kept and I tried to keep this process
 within the framework of party democracy and comradely discussion.  I
 attempted to ask once more how he viewed the observations of comrades.
 No, he said firmly, I ask you to relieve me.  Well, let it be.
 Subsequently I insisted that his experience should be used in a
 ministerial post and that he should continue his activity in the Central
 Committee.
 93   There are all manner of turn-arounds in life.  We took account of some of
 B.N. Yeltsin's qualities which had already been revealed when he was here
 -- you know his style better than I do -- but we thought that the Moscow
 party organization and the responsibility would,"grind all that down" and
 the excesses would go.  That did not happen.  Then, in my opinion, he
 000175690
 UNCLASSIFIED
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 chose the course which was not the best and set off on the course of
 confrontation.
 94~   LD2604094190TAKE8
 95    [Excerpts] What are we getting from him?  Nothing except a full dose of
 criticism.  Well, that is the right of every member of the Central
 Committee, and deputy, his right.  But it seems to me now that his
 potential as a political figure nonetheless is not great.  His program and
 his speeches are known to me.  If they are taken in succession, it is like
 an old played-out record, a collection of theses: The leadership is living
 out its term, it has exhausted itself, torn itself away from the people
 and so on and so forth.  If one takes the criticism by itself, it is of
 some use, all the same.  However, I cannot agree with his indiscriminate
 accusations directed toward the leadership of the country, toward the
 party and the Central Committee.
 96    What he touches upon requires serious political analysis.  Whfle remaining
 principled, critical, demanding, one must behave responsibly oneself.
 Boris Nikoalyevich is speculating upon the difficulties, upon the
 socioeconomic tension.  Ali that does exist, but one can and must act in
 order to draw lessons, to turn the matter round, and not speculate upon
 the difficulties from demagogic positions.  I think that here, Boris
 Nikolayevich has got carried away and is not at al.~ able to get off this
 destructive track.
 97    Of course, you understand; That it is only because I am in Sverdlovsk and
 you are asking me about it that I have given such a detailed reply.  On
 the whole, I have never delved deep into these discussions, I do not like
 them.  Today, we need to get things done, not engage in slogans and
 promises.  I think probably something-should-bead-abou-t-privi-loges ~ We
 ought to get to the point where there are no illegal privileges.  There
 should be dust one privilege: That labor, talent, ~,osition and merit
 should all be valued, but on the basis of law.  In this connection we have
 already resolved a great deal.  I know that both in your region and
 throughout the country these problems -- concerning private residences and
 all manner of "special benefits" -- are being resolved.
 98    In Hoscow, as far back as the time of the Civfl War, Lenin and the
 country's top leadership were provided with state lachas.  In the thirties
 the system was given legal status through appropriate decisions.  This was
 done to fix the leadership's salaries at a certain level, so that they
 would not differ sharply from those of workers, officials or the
 intelligentsia.  Salaries for Politburo members and for secretaries of the
 CPSU Central Committee were R800, but in conjunction with this it was
 possible to order provisions up to a value of R400.  And there were a
 number of other concessions.  Now we have handed over all the dachas: In
 one case to veterans, in another for children, in a. third case for medical
 purposes, in a fourth for holiday homes.
 99    From now on all this will be decided at the Supreme Soviet, as is the case
 in all states.  As far as the top two or three peo;~le are concerned, the
 Supreme Soviet will have to pass an official decision on what level of
 salary to set and what conditions are attached, and then publish this
 information for everyone to know.  The main criter;.on is that everything
 should be assessed in terms of salary, and from there on one lives as the
 rest of the country lives.
 100   Now we have got as far as personal pensions and personal transport.  This
 all needs to be thought through.  I shall tell you frankly: We are of a
 000175690
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 mind to impose strict order.
 101   What should be the state's first concern?  Particularly deserving people
 -- veterans, regardless of whether they are party iuembers or not -- and
 families with many children.  Much has already been done in these six
 months.  This work has proved to be not simple.  The fact is that the
 system of privileges is to be found practically everywhere.  For example,
 all~the creative unions build holiday homes.  And what is the situation in
 manufacturing industry?  Industrial workers themselves have earned the
 money to build their own social facilities.  At Uralmash, let's say, who
 makes use of the holiday homes, the convalescent homes or the hunting
 lodges or whatever -- is it all the workers or only the bosses?  In other
 words, are there privileges here too or not?  People argue over this.  And
 I think: Let them argue.                        _
 102   LD2704102490TAKE9
 103   [Excerpts] The main criterion is the same: Everything should be evaluated
 according to the labor contribution of each person -- worker, peasant,
 member of the intelligentsia, scientist, cultural worker and state
 official.
 104   Now, if you will permit me I shall say a few words about the allegations
 that Gorbachev has an account in a Swiss bank and pays his royalties into
 it.  I must disappoint those who love rumors: All of my royalties go into
 the party funds.  This includes the royalties for the book "Restructuring
 and the New Thinking For Our Country and For the Whole World," which has
 been published in many countries.  I put a million rubles into the party
 funds and did not take one kopeck for myself.  I sent R350,000 to .Irkutsk
 Children's Hospital, handed 100,000 dollars to the Russian Children's
 Clinical Hospital for very sick child-ren-Raises-Maksmovna-acts--as-patron
 of that hospital and helps it to develop in such a way that children from
 all over the country can receive highly qualified help here.  R50,000 has
 been paid to the Culture Fund, R200,000 for the Terkin monument, R150,000
 to Armenfa for the victims of the earthquake, 850,000 to refugees from
 Azerbaijan.  Royalties for that book are still coming in.  What I do with
 them you can see from this "account" that I have given.
 105   And, of course, there are no bank accounts in existence anywhere.  It is
 demeaning and simply shameful even to reply to these fabrications.  It
 pains me as a person that at times people stoop to such a vulgar level of,
 literally, narrow-mindedness, using such clumsy fabrications for political
 ends.
 106   Many serious issues in urgent need of resolution have accumulated in our
 country.  And it is necessary to approach all of them in a responsible
 manner.
 107   But the main thing is to show, from the example of our vast country, that
 socialism is capable of carrying out deep transformations within the
 framework of democracy and legality.  It is necessary to do everything to
 avoid confrontation in society and even more so to avoid civil war,
 violence, illegality and arbitrary actions.  The rule of law must prevail.
 No more organizing of witch-hunts or sowing of hatred in the quest for an
 enemy must be permitted.
 108   Can the fate of Russia lie in this?  Can one arrive at a democratic and
 humane socialism via new lawlessness?  No!  I am convinced that in our
 country we must do everything in a good way.  What is needed is patience
 and restraint.  Some people make this appeal to me: Mikhail Sergeyevich,
 bang your fist!  Others say: Give the order to strike at the headquarters!
 000175690
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 Dear comrades, we are developing?the democratic process and the
 construction of a law- based state so-that the people, themselves, should
 decide all the very important questions via the institutions of democracy
 and democratic processes in the party.  But to strike with one's fist
 means failing to escape from the vicious circle.
 109   We must become a civilized country.  That is what our peoples, who have
 suffered so much and have done so much for history and for the entire
 world, are worthy of.  After all, without our socialist contribution the
 world would be different today.
 110   And now, if perestroyka is victorious, there will be an entirely different
 world.  If we lose -- even though I think that we won't lose, simply our
 path may turn out to be more or less painful -- the world will change for
 the worse.  I know for a fact that you will no longer return our people to
 the old life and you won't shut them up.  The oxygen which our society has
 received as a result of democratization and openness is what our people
 and each person needs.
 111   That path of changes on such a scale is difficult, not everything succeeds
 as planned.  And we make errors, and we endure them, we endure them in a
 human way.  But there is no return to the past, our people have already
 gone through too much for them to be muzzled again.  Indeed they
 themselves will not permit this.  That is the main thing which I would
 like to say in conclusion.  I hope dear Uralmash workers, that you
 maintain your reputation at a high level and maintain your character.
 Without you the country cannot live, just as you cannot live without the
 country.  And in this spirit of mutual understanding let's part.  I wish
 you great success, we will help one another also in future!  (Applause)
 112   LD2704104190TAKE10                  -     _~______       __    ____
 113   [Excerpts] Perestroyka is, first and foremost, the individual and concern
 for his vital needs.  It is not by chance that the attention of M.S.
 Gorbachev, who on Thursday continued his visit to Sverdlovsk, was drawn to
 the blocks of the country's first youth housing complex.  [passage
 omitted: the housing shortage is a serious problem for the country] The
 problem of foodstuffs in the country, including the Urals, is as acute.
 How can it be solved most quickly in the interests of Soviet people?  This
 was the subject of a conversation between the USSR president and shoppers
 and sales people in one of the city's supermarkets.
 114   M.S. Gorbachev was interested to know which foodstuffs and goods it was
 possible to buy, and what presented particular difficulties.  The people
 complained in particular about the lack of fruit.  Here the line is as
 follows, M.S. Gorbachev said: The city should have enough storehouses and
 conclude agreements about deliveries from southern republics.  There will
 be no other means.  It's not good that there is no reliable center for
 storing fruit and vegetables in Sverdlovsk.  It is not good for such a
 city to live on handouts on what's being supplied to it.  I know
 storehouses are being built here, but evidently things are progressing
 slowly.
 115   On Sverdlovsk's main square -- named after the 1905 revolution -- the USSR
 president and CPSU Central Committee general secretary laid flowers at the
 V.I. Lenin statue.  A conversation with war and labor veterans on the.
 glorious traditions of the Urals and on the valor and loyalty to their
 homeland of its sons and daughters.
 116   I cordially greet you, dear veterans, Mikhail Sergeyevich addressed them,
 especially on the eve of the 45th anniversary of the great victory.  The
 000175690
 Page: 14    of 37
 whole country is preparing to give the generation which did everything to
 defend our life, freedom. and ideals, its due.
 117   N.I. Mikhailova-Gagarina, a veteran of the airborne assault troops,
 entered the conversation.  We are proud of what we have lived through, she
 said, noticeably nervous.  We thank the state for its care of us.  Mikhail
 Sergeyevich answered: The optimism, confidence and calmness of the
 veterans always attracts me.  [passage omitted: Veteran says that the CPSU
 must remain united]
 118   We need, M.S. Gorbachev said, to renew society and more fully open up the
 possibilities of the socialist system and increase the party's authority
 by deeds.  And we will certainly preserve our ideas and spiritual values,
 we will carry the banner of our cause high.
 119   For how do some people act: They, it seems, are in favor of the renewal
 process but are ready to throw out the baby, as they say, with the bath
 water, and are prepared to reject socialism.  We ourselves, of course,
 must investigate our party base.  If someone has decided to act
 differently today, let him act as his conscience allows.  But we must go
 to the congress consolidated.
 120   M.S. Gorbachev approached another group of citizens who wanted to know the
 president's point of view on the problems of forming a market economy in
 the country and his opinion on the draft laws being prepared and the means
 for improving the economy.  There was a detailed a:.d frank conversation on
 these themes.
 121   One of the questions, outside of the general framework, went like this:
 Why are talks not being conducted with Lithuania?
 122   -- We conduct talks with other states -- Mikhail Sergeyevich answered --
 but we consider Lithuania a Soviet -re~ubli~ -~~yau remember *hp 4uest3nn______
 was put precisely in this way at the Third USSR Congress of People's
 Deputies.  And you and I, in the face of the Congress decisions, are in an
 identical situation.
 123   LD2704111190TAKB11
 124   [Excerpts] The Urals has from time immemorial forged weapons for the
 defense of the homeland.  A powerful defense potential has ben created
 here.  The new political thinking born of perestroyka has allowed the
 country to reorient a considerable proportion of the capacities of the
 defense complex to production of purely peaceful output.
 125   An exhibition of consumer goods set out at one of the enterprises which is
 undergoing conversion, the Urals Electro-Mechanical Works, shows how this
 difficult process is proceeding.  M.S. Gorbachev looked around the
 exhibition.
 126   He assessed the creative work of the engineers, designers, and workers by
 whose efforts high-quality competitive civilian products are being
 produced.
 127   As the saying goes, there are goods and goods.  It is very important, the
 president of the USSR noted, to use the great intellectual and technical
 potential of the defense sector to obtain output of the hightest category.
 The exhibition displays the most modern models of medical apparatus,
 household electronics, and video equipment.  It was emphasized in the
 conversation that it was important for these items to be put into mass
 production more quickly and that they should become not just exhibition
 display items but goods which everyone can buy.
 128   A detailed dialogue about the problems being tackled by Soviet scientists
 and about the development of the scientific potential and of the Urals
 000175690
 Page: 15    of 37
 took place at the Institute of Metals Physics of the Urals Scientific
 Center.
 129   Leading representatives of virtually all branches of science had assembled
 here for the meeting with the USSR president.
 130   Opening the meeting, G.A. Mesyats, chairman of the Presidium of the Urals
 Scientific Center and vice-president of the USSR Academy of Sciences,
 dwelt in detail on the main activities of the Urals branch of the Academy,
 which now unites 38 scientific institutions, special design bureaux for
 scientific instrument making, and a number of engineering centers.
 131   The majority of those who took part in the exchange of views drew
 attention to problems of the development of fundamental science, having
 noted the need to raise its prestige, renew the material base, and
 strengthen higher educational establishments.  In particular, it was
 pointed out that the interests of the development of fundamental science
 and the results of the introduction of market principles in the economy
 are now entering into a contradiction.  A firm legislative base, which
 removes this tendency, is necessary, the speakers believe.
 132   It was said also that the scientists' limited opportunities for developing
 international contacts is one of the factors restraining progress in
 science and research.
 133   Addressing the meeting, M.S. Gorbachev said in particular: I profess the
 following point of view.  In politics there would be fewer mistakes,
 policy well-grounded, real, and effective, if it rested on scientific
 knowledge.  A scientific prediction of our advance is especially topical
 in the Urals, in a region which plays an immense role in the development
 of the productive forces of the entire country.  The Urals have taken on
 too many of the country's worries dung"-fhe years~l-iaf-were  i  icu~#ox
 it, for us to continue exploiting it today without thinking of anything
 apart from increasing capacities and labor resources.
 134   In this hall I have heard much that is useful and interesting, M.S.
 Gorbachev stressed.  Now, according to him, is precisely the moment for
 everyone together to think soundly about things, including the question of
 how it came to pass that such a Oblast, has found itself with such old
 capital stock.
 135   Responding to the addresses by the scientists, M.S. Gorbachev noted that
 he shares their concern over the state and fate of fundamental science in
 the Soviet Union.
 136   The president replied to questions by participants in the meeting
 concerning both problems of scientific and technical progress and the
 realities of today's socio-political situation in the country.
 137   In the evening a meeting between representatives of the working people of
 Sverdlovsk oblast, party, war and labor veterans and M.S.  Gorbachev took
 place in the Youth Palace.
 13$   The participants in the meeting were addressed by M.S. Gorbachev.  The
 address will be published in the press.  (endall) X61222
 27/1307z apr
 139   LD2704123290TAKE12

