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 Classification:   UNCLASSIFIED       Status:        [STAT]
 Document Date:      27 Apr 90        Category:      [CAT]
 Report Type:      Daily Report       Report Date:
 Report Number:    FBIS-SOV-90-084    UDC Number:
 Headline:  PRAVDA Reports on Gorbachev Urals Visit
 Page   1
 Source Line:  PM2704154190 Moscow PRAVDA in Russian 27 Apr 90 Second
 Edition pp 1-2
 Subsiug:   ["Mutual Understanding Is the Buttress of Perestroyka.
 M.S. Gorbachev's Meetings at Urals Labor
 Collectives." --PRAVDA headline]
 FULL TEXT OP ARTICLE:
 1.  [`Mutual Understanding Is the Buttress of Perestroyka.  M.S.
 Gorbachev's Meetings at Urals Labor Collectives."--PRAVDA headline]
 2.  [Excerpts] Sverdlovsk, 26 Apr--What needs to be done to live
 better, to radically change the socioeconomic situation in the
 country? This question arose repeatedly during the meetings of M.S.
 Gorbachev, USSR president, general secretary of the CPSU Central
 Committee, in labor collectives in the Urals. Today is the second day
 of Mikhail Sergeyevich's stay in Sverdlovsk.__
 3.  Yesterday evening at the works management of Uralmash he had a
 meeting, lasting hours, with workers, engineering and technical
 staff, representatives of the labor collective council, and with the
 party aktiv of the association. Since the auditorium could not
 accommodate everyone who wanted to take part in the frank,
 controversial conversation, its progress was relayed to the works
 square where many hundreds of Uralmash people had gathered.
 4.  I have a tremendous desire to have a talk with you in a calm,
 businesslike atmosphere, M.S. Gorbachev said, opening the meeting.
 What is worrying us? The fact that the Urals, which has done, is
 doing and will do so much for the country--this mighty region is now
 experiencing great distortions and strains in its development. Not
 only production and economic ones but also social ones. And this is
 already spilling out into certain.moods. The situation is worrying
 5.  These last few hours of contacts and conversations with the
 Uralmash people shows that the correct information is reaching us.
 People are confirming what was already known to us, which gives rise
 to a certain disquiet. In any case, one can evidently speak of
 certain deformations having taken place in the development of the
 Urals' production forces. On the one hand, a mighty cadre and
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 scientific potential has been created, still capable of performing
 further great tasks, and on the other hand there are problems of
 ecology and social tension.
 6.  K.S. Gorbachev asked the Uralmash people to express their ideas
 on this point.
 7.  Our meeting and my arrival in your oblast, he continued,
 precisely coincides with a very important stage in the development of
 the economic reform.
 8.  What we have gone through is like a preparatory stage of that
 reform, and we have come to understand the country in which we live.
 Perhaps in the main we have understood its illnesses which, along
 with achievements, undoubtedly exist. We have tried many approaches
 in the economic sphere, new methods of management.  Some have
 succeeded, others not, and here and there we have simply
 miscalculated.
 9.  But at all events this was the period which, especially when we
 are talking about one of the greatest changes in the country's
 history, we have passed through, and now we have the foundations of a
 legal order, and economic experience. We have acquired experience; we
 have started thinking differently and we have started talking to each
 other differently. An environment-has come about in which one can
 solidly and radically begin economic reform.
 10.  Therefore talk is important, from these angles too. What is
 more, I see anxiety. It has appeared both in the press and here. How
 are we going to live? And in general it touches precisely upon what
 we are going to do in order to live better, so that the situation
 should change for the better. Evidently people's patience is already
 at its limit.  So from that point of view the trip is very important
 for me.
 11.  We have conducted two USSR Presidential Councils, joint sessions
 of the USSR Council of the Federation and the Presidential Council.
 We will return to that again, and then, as they say, we will go to
 the people in order to weigh everything up thoroughly. Such a change
 needs to be made by everybody, together, if we understand each other.
 Sharp turns are calculated in what is envisaged to be proposed to the
 working people, to the country. But we need to do things in such a
 way that we travel this road with the least losses.
 12.  I.I. Stroganov, general director of the Uralmash association who
 spoke next gave a short description of the enterprise and told of the
 tasks and problems facing the collective. [passage omitted]
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 13. Under the existing state of affairs and with the very low rents
 the association sustains losses each year amounting to 7 million
 rubles on housing alone. Children's preschool establishments and a
 number of other facilities are loss-making, too. We have 45,000
 apartments on our books, but today there are 12,000 people in the
 housing line, because we build housing but are also obliged to give
 it to other people who do not work at " Uralmash."
 14.  (Gorbachev) Wherein lies the sickness, and not just that of
 "Uralmash," but of the other works in the Urals economic region
 too?
 15.  (I.I. Stroganov) We made a major mistake when we created
 additional jobs; for a time we forgot about the person, about the
 social base. The regional sickness seems to lie in precisely this.
 And second. All of us together, we made a real mess of agriculture.
 It's the time not to give help, but for everyone to restructure
 themselves fundamentally in this way...
 16.  (Gorbachev) I noticed that labor productivity is nevertheless
 quite decent at your enterprise. Is this linked with modernization of
 production, price formation or with the intensification of labor?
 17.  (Stroganov) Unfortunately with intensification...
 18.  (Gorbachev) When you say that according to your calculations the
 changeover to the new economic relations could ruin machine-building,
 which calculations do you have in mind?
 19.  (Stroganov) These calculations have been done on the basis of
 the deductions that are being planned: 30 percent to the union
 budget, 27 percent to the republican budget, plus new types of
 payment for land, electricity and labor resources. If you add all of
 this together, then we are left with less than 30 percent. That is to
 say that nothing remains for forming capital funds. And this is a key
 question for us.
 20.  (Gorbachev) Do you compare your products with similar
 competitive models? What is the difference between them?
 21.  (Stroganov) By way of example I'll say that our quarry excavator
 is absolutely competitive with foreign machines of the same class. We
 supply this equipment to Soviet customers for R90,000: There has
 never been an instance when we have sold each excavator abroad for
 less than 600,000. [passage omitted]
 22.  A.S. Osintsev, deputy general director of the Association for
 Economics, touched on the question of how one should asess the
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 monopoly of "Uralmash" in the production of unique machine building
 parts. I think, he said, that we do not need to be afraid of
 monopolists such as "Uralmash." We are a long way away from
 becoming a monopoly, for the level of our output depends not so much
 upon ourselves as it does in many cases upon a mass of component
 manufactures and actions by suppliers. It is here, at the supplier
 level, that we must initiate demonopolization or, rather, organize
 broad competition among suppliers to enable us to really choose the
 best.
 23.  M.S. Gorbachev asked the deputy director to answer the question:
 What, in his view, causes society's concern when the question arises
 of the radicalization of reforms and of us having to take consistent
 and major steps toward a market economy? What has frightened people
 and caused alarm?
 24.  It seems to me, the economist replied, that apprehensions arise
 as a result of the losses without which there can be no shift to a
 market economy.
 25.  It cannot avoid falls in the volumes of production and
 unemployment. I believe that these two factors are the chief ones.
 They, most of all, are making people worried.
 26.  (M.S. Gorbachev) But if it is a case of         to- tie this--
 path, and I have understood from the speeches here and from numerous
 conversations during the visit to the enterprise, that everyone
 realizes that this is the path we have to take, then it is necessary
 for everything to be thought through and weighed up beforehand, for
 everything to be discussed. The essence of matters should be known
 not only at the center, it should be understood not only by economic
 personnel. Ordinary people and work collectives should understand
 precisely what it is all about.
 27.  We do not wish to rush headlong into the market, and such an
 approach is unacceptable to us. The transfer should be carried out on
 the basis of a considered policy.  We must, particularly in the
 initial stage, have a grip on this process and regulate it by means
 of a price mechanism.
 28.  Social protection measures must also be provided for.  Finally,
 it is necessary to think of the fact that a process of regrouping,
 and possibly a laying off, of the working force will take place in
 manufacturing. But our cooperatives are only just coming into being,
 the service sector is not developed, just as everything connected to
 trade is not developed. For example we have enormous loads on our
 retail trade capacity, whereas the world has already gone through all
 that. Nearly always they have a ratio where the number of people
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 employed outside of manufacturing is greater than the number working,
 in material manufacturing. In other words, everything here is stil
 the other way around.
 29.  Basically everything--is in material production. So, we still
 have much work, we can employ people. But a system of re-training is
 needed, a plan of action is needed. This must be understood by
 everyone! I am convinced that in our country today unemployment
 occurs where we do not think things out, do not work things out. We
 shall keep our promise. When we are ready to talk with people, when
 we have thought everything through,'we shall present well-thought out
 measures, we shall submit them to society's judgement. They will have
 to be worked out in each region, in each labor collective.
 30.  From the hall the request was heard for an opinion on the latest
 publications in the press about the so-called economics of shock
 therapy Polish-fashion.
 31.  (M.S. Gorbachev) So the press has frightened people?  From this
 hall, from Sverdlovsk, the whole press must be told, and the
 journlists who are here present must learn and tell others: In these
 matters particularly well-considered judgements are needed,
 publications must not carry only the element of alarm.
 32.  The speech by A.R. Sagalovich, head of mechanical workshop No.
 15, touched on an important aspect of radicalization of the reform.
 In my opinion, he said, enterprises are entering the market economy
 by various paths. This means it is necessary to take into account the
 state of the basic assets of each specific plant. Some have more worn
 assets and other newer ones.
 33.  Today there is a leasehold law. But often, when the division of
 money in the collective begins according to the coefficient of the
 share of work, the system does not work. Where people are good the
 system really works.  Where the collective has not taken shape, it
 does not operate.
 34.  In order to advance further,.the question needs to be asked
 regarding the role of the manager, the organizer of production and
 the specialists, and regarding the responsibility for the course of
 economic reform and his role in the course of that reform.
 35.  (M.S. Gorbachev) And don't you feel remote tremors in connection
 with reform and a change in the situation: That it is already
 necessary to prove one's right and entitlement by competence,
 conscientiousness, and the capability to work better? For soon
 everybody will have to prove this. Does not such a way of putting
 things have an effect on discipline, on responsibility, and on
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 36.  (A.R. Sagalovich) It does not. Well, maybe to a certain degree.
 My opinion is that at the level of the top manager of a structural
 subsection, a factory, for example, it is possible to manage somehow
 in the old fashion. But further work must be carried out in
 accordance with some other system.
 37.  Yu.F. Chebotarev, head of the social-cultural-service
 directorate of "Uralmash," devoted his speech to the difficult
 problems of his work. In part he raised the question of this area's
 unprofitability. As an exmaple the cost of a square meter of new
 housing was brought up. It increases with each passing year, but the
 payment per square meter is fixed as previously. They have tried to
 touch on this question but have received a decisive rebuff from the
 public.
 38.  (M.S. Gorbachev) How much housing do you have and what is the
 subsidy for maintaining it?
 39.  (Yu.E Chebotarev) The subsidy from the works is almost R7
 million...
 40.  (M.S. Gorbachev) Obviously many people would_agree to take
 apartments as their own property?
 41.  (Yu.F. Chebotarev) There is such an initiative, however the
 right of such a transferral has not yet been given to the local
 soviets.
 42.  (M.S. Gorbachev) But this concerns your housing-- departmental.
 43.  (Yu.F. Chebotarev) Departmental--yes it's departmental, however
 there are many complicated issues here.
 44.  (M.S. Gorbachev) But this is a matter of handing them over for
 free. The apartments are received, people live according to the norm.
 We are not talking about those who are waiting. Their situation, of
 course, must be improved. But those whose housing corresponds to the
 norms should have it given to them as their own property, for free.
 And let them maintain their apartments themselves and pay for this
 themselves. For comrades, when we say that rents here are low--this
 is an artificial approach. They reduced wages--and at the expense of
 this they made housing cheap.
 45.  Naturally, this does not concern people in need, poor people.
 The state is bound to take care of them. But as regards the basic
 mass it is possible to act in this way. But then, when someone
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 realizes that it is his own apartment, then he will maintain it in a
 different way. And the housing stock will be in a completely
 different condition.  Especially our entrances.
 46.  Look at what the Vest does. There wages decide everything.
 Public stock is very small. On the whole people live on their wages.
 They get, say, 2,000 dollars and immediately 30 percent go on housing
 and 11 percent on taxes. Forty odd percent of their earnings has
 already gone.
 47.  We are used to: This is free, that's free--and people do not see
 their wages anyway. Nov if they were to receive them in full and pay
 for everything themselves, then it would be a completely different
 matter.
 48.  Apart from this, what does receiving housing as property mean?
 It means: People have received property. One person, two, many. That
 is, market relations appear in society.
 49.  So far this does not exist here. But the question must probably
 be considered properly.
 50.  A.A. Tokminov, leader of a mixed-skill [kompleksnyy] team,
 recounted that at " Uralmash " the workers' initiative, labor effort
 and fervor had dropped sharply recently. At present tie workers who-
 work well, quite honestly, do not understand who benefits by the
 creation of artificial obstacles to prevent them from working even
 better and to higher standards, and receiving worthy remuneration for
 this.
 51.  (M.S. Gorbachev) I want to support your concern. The concept of
 producing more and better in conditions of economic reform by a
 smaller number is a key one. We have been throttled by egalitarianism
 [uravnilbvka]. If we don't properly value the labor of the worker,
 collective farm worker, teacher, doctor and engineer, but keep on
 assessing it according to the scale and the rate, we will not move
 forward. I have been told of cases where surgeons, for instance,
 cannot carry out an important operation without high-grade nurses.
 But a surgeon does not possess any rights to encourage a specialist
 who, in his opinion, is worthy of a professor's wage.
 52.  And what happens: Such a nurse leaves the team and the whole
 cycle of complex operations falls apart. There is a similar picture
 everywhere.
 53.  In science also remuneration is according to ranks and
 degrees--seniors, juniors and scientific assistants. But the
 contribution to the common cause over a year, over the last five
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 years, which a man has contributed to, hardly bothers anyone. But if
 his work was noticed because, according to the contract, some amount
 was received thanks to this, then in any case it was divided equally.
 54.  Let us agree: It is necessary to initiate a resolute struggle
 against egalitarianism [uravnilovkoy], beginning with every workplace
 and every working operation. Otherwise we will deprive ourselves of
 the opportunity of constantly deriving benefit for society from the
 energy of talented people. Having thanked the USSR president in the
 name of the collective for visiting "Uralmash," P.N.  Tobolov,
 chief of a workshop, drew M.S. Gorbachev's attention to the labor
 conditions of association's metalworkers. In the last year alone the
 shop has lost 150 high-class specialists. Some have left because of"
 the poor working conditions, others because of the low pay.
 55.  A very great number of women are already working at our
 enterprise, V.F. Boyankin, a smith from section number 37, noted.
 They are working on a sliding rotation, meaning that it includes
 night shifts. What does a woman who works on a sliding rotation feel?
 You can already imagine, the worker added, for you have seen our
 furnaces.
 56.  (M.S. Gorbachev) In general, the situation of women, above all,
 is an indicator of the fact that our society needs changes. Let us acknowledge this honestly. Take just the USSR Presidential
 Council--there are no women there. Take the other leading
 bodies--it's the same dismal picture. But on the other hand, they are
 working in places where there shouldn't be any women at all, in hot
 workshops, on a three-shift system. [passage omitted]
 57.  Summing up the results of the meeting H.S. Gorbachev said: Here
 in the Urals huge masses of people are concentrated, who are dealing
 with tasks in the economic, scientific and defense spheres that are
 of importance for the country. And that role which Sverdlovsk and its
 labor collectives are playing, and your anxieties and concern, all
 this has made us come here. I think I as the president and the
 general secretary of the CPSU Central Committee, and other members of
 the Soviet leadership ought to pay more attention to the Urals.
 58.  This conference and the conversations with the workers of
 "Uralmash" are of great importance for me. We have reached a stage
 in perestroyka when one has to take decisions that are of very great
 importance for the destiny of the country. And what people are
 thinking, the way they are assessing the situation and the thigns
 they consider necessary to be done, all this is very important now.
 59.  You obviously realize that I have a position of my own and my
 own convictions. And nevertheless through all the years of my life
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 and work I have believed in the following method: Any decision ought
 to be checked agianst the opinion of the working people, no matter
 how one assesses it oneself. This is a most important condition for a
 policy to be right and for fever losses and mistakes to be made.
 60. When we began perestroyka we saw our society in one light.
 Having gone more deeply into it, we began to understand that minor
 repairs alone, repainting, a change in wallpaper, will not do.
 Changes were necessary everywhere and very serious ones--in the
 economy, in the federation, in the party, in the soviets, in culture
 and in the whole spiritual sphere, with the aim of ennobling society
 and creating normal living conditions for people.
 61.  lie have now approached the stage of adopting major decisions. It
 was for this reason that I decided to come to you, knowing the
 potential of the Urals--human, intellectual, scientific and cultural.
 I see this meeting as support and interpret your opinions in relation
 to our policies and to the actions of the center as a desire to
 attrac the leadership's attentions, so that it does not overlook
 anything serious.
 62.  It is true that people have not been able to do without demagogy
 either, in several conversations. But demagogues also make use of
 democracy and even more so than we_do. It should, however be the
 other way around: That all sensible people and responsible peop e  n
 our society should make use of glasnost and democracy and genuinely
 take power into their own hands.
 63.  In this sense I would like to answer the question raised in the
 discussions and the notes--how does the country's leadership and how
 do I personally view the working class' role at the current very
 important stage of society's development.
 64. The party will not be able to achieve the implementation of its
 policy and to march in the vanguard of change unless it bases itself
 upon the working class. I am greatly alarmed by the fact that 12
 workers resigned from the party today. I would not say: It's the
 nature of the present time; some come others leave. I would ask both
 the works party committee and ordinary party and works comrades to
 meet with them and try to understand what the matter is. The
 country's leadership is pinning its hopes on an active contribution
 by workers into all our affairs. And not merely at the machine,
 although I agree with the comrades who say that it's time we finished
 with meetings and discussions and started active and productive work.
 The discussions will probably continue, but the center of gravity
 ought to be shifted to implementing policy in all spheres. And we are
 counting on the support of the working class everywhere.
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 65.  It is a pity that at the elections of USSR and Russian
 Federation people's deputies, and even at those to local soviets,
 many workers have been squeezed out. To put it frankly: the soviets
 will only lose from it. Perhaps they should think of setting up
 consultative bodies which the most front-ranking and active workers,
 faithful to the cause of the renewal, would join. Secondly: Give an
 account to labor collectives of all they do. Without such a link,
 neither the soviets will work as they should, not will the workers be
 satisfied.
 66.  We must introduce this kind of a `correction coefficient,' and
 also think about why many workers withdrew their candidacies and
 refused to participate in the pre-election struggle, and ask
 ourselves whether it was because it was taking place in such a form
 that this was discouraging from them. One must learn from this. One
 mustn't allow the soviets, which to some extent, I would say, no
 longer fully represent the working class and peasantry, to find
 themselves cut off from life and from people's real concerns.
 67.  My main point in my answer on the role of the working class in
 the current crucial time is this: If the working class remains apart
 from the political processes, or at least does not take up a very
 active role, perestroyka will lose, we will be marking time. I want
 us to understand this. More opportunities for the working class to
 take a more active role have come into being today. Both the trade
 unions, the labor collectives councils and other social and economic
 mechanisms need to be used so that the working class may influence
 everything which now occurs.
 68.  Further, M.S. Gorbachev answered questions from Uralmash
 workers.  Answering a question about individual housing construction,
 he stressed the necessity to meet people's initiatives halfway in all
 ways possible and to give them the maximum help including the use of
 enterprises' resources. A real opportunity now exists to accelerate
 housing construction and I have several proposals on this count. I
 would ask local bodies to concern themselves with the allocation of
 land for individual housing construction. It is also necessary to
 give land for gardens and vegetable gardens so that those who wish
 to, may grow all that they need for themselves. This has both a
 social and educative significance, and a significance in relation to
 foodstuffs. A man on the earth, communing with the earth, is a quite
 different man.
 69.  M.S. Gorbachev read out the following question: "In my view,
 the open letter of the CPSU Central Committee on consolidation based
 on principle, contradicts the principle expounded in your Lenin
 speech. This principle is closer to me as an ordinary party member. I
 know your style fairly well thanks to the mass media and it seemed to
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 me that you personally did not participate in the composition of the
 open letter. Is this so?"
 70.  1 will speak bluntly--I did participate, was the answer. I
 think, comrades, we should take into account the concern, to which
 Communists' letters to the Central Committee serve as testimony.
 There are messages from your works among them as well. Gatherings and
 conferences express anxiety about the party's fate and about
 preparing properly for the congress so that it can cope with the
 tasks being placed before it, both from the point of view of the aims
 of perestroyka and from the point of view of strengthening and
 enhancing the vanguard role of the CPSU.
 71.  We have taken this in and have tried, as far as possible to
 express it in the platform and the draft rules. Perhaps a little more
 work was needed but the documents were published so that communists
 could discuss them, express critical remarks and go to the congress
 with good ideas and proposals which would strengthen the party and
 give it a new, attractive look. And as well, so that communists might
 feel themselves to be really in charge in the party.
 72.  It may be that as yet not everything is working out, but the
 direction, the line we have taken is the correct one.  We have
 invited Communists to come forward with alternative platforms. We are
 for freedom of thought, for the juxtaposition o  p  no of--v a---
 have published the "Democratic Platform," then the "Platform For a
 Marxist Party"--go ahead, comrade Communists, and discuss them!
 73.  But why were we obliged to write that letter, against what?
 Communists were worried by the fact that, instead of consolidation,
 to all intents and purposes work had begun to split the party. This
 was no longer the struggle of opinions, the juxtaposition of points
 of view, the search for the real truth, no longer consolidation but
 rather an attempt on the eve of the congress--or perhaps at the
 Congress itself--to split the party. At this responsible and crucial
 stage in the development of the country, the state and society, we
 cannot allow the force which is the CPSU to be put in jeopardy. So
 the letter is directed against splitters, not against those who
 criticize the platform. Incidentally, this document was distributed
 to all Central Committee members and to first secretaries of kray and
 oblast committees. They contributed their remarks, and then the
 question arose: If someone criticizes the platform and the draft
 rules, what then? Should this comrade be removed from the party? If
 that were the case we would have had to start with the first
 secretary of the CPSU Moscow City Committee Yu.A. Prokofyev, given
 that he voiced some serious critical remarks as far back as the
 Politburo meeting on the draft of the platform. Of course not!
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 74.  We are talking about people who are heading toward a split. At
 the present responsible stage the party cannot fulfil its vanguard
 role if it is dragged into a struggle among factions. We are for the
 consolidation of all forces--those on the "Democratic Platform" and
 those who have proposed the "Marxist Platform." In juxtaposing all
 points of view. things must be done in such a way that the congress is
 able to fulfill its task.
 75.  Replying to a question about possible versions of the
 development of events in Lithuania, M.S. Gorbachev said: We hope to
 arrive at a political resolution of the problem. But I must say to
 you and to the country that we are up against a leadership which is
 displaying adventurism and is speculating on democracy. For, even for
 the simplest matters proposals are prepared which are subjected to
 preliminary examination in the soviets and are then put forward for
 people to discuss and it is only after this that decisions are made.
 Sere, however, in deciding a basic question of the fate of the
 republic and of the people living in it, a question affecting the
 whole population of our multinational state--the deputies assembled
 at night, raised their hands and made the decision. This does not
 come within any framework of democracy.
 76.  I think that the Third USSR Congres of Peoples Deputies acted
 correctly, and we--the president and the government--have only the
 mandate of the Congress: The constitutional structure shiou d-be----
 restored. It is necessary to return to the position which existed in
 the republic on 10 March, and examine the question after this.
 Otherwise, what will happen? What will happen to the people who wish
 to return to their own republics (non-Lithuanians--there are about
 700,000)? What will be the fate of the Belorussian lands? Further for
 500 years Klaipeda was in German hands and as a result of the war was
 transferred to the USSR and, insofar as Lithuania was a part of the
 USSR it was united with that republic. Today the people of
 Kaliningrad are putting forward the proposal to unite Klaipeda with
 their oblast.
 77.  Finally, how is the oil, raw material, etc. to be paid for?  In
 foriegn currency? We shall discuss that, too. For the "divorce
 process" what will be needed is first of all a referendum. It is
 necessary to find out what people will say, and the Lithuanians are a
 very sensible people, a cultured and educated people. Let them give
 some thought as to which path to follow. In my opinion there is an
 increasing number of sober voices there now.  People's thirst for an
 independent [samostoyatelnyy] Lithuanian state can also be satisfied
 within the framework of the relations of the federation. The
 important thing is to tackle all of these questions in a normal and
 constitutional form.
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 78.  Thus, we shall not retreat from the mandate of the Third USSR
 Congress of Peoples Deputies.
 79.  A question has come in about the islands of the Kuriles ridge.
 We have no superfluous land. We shall adhere to the helsinki
 positions--the recognition of postwar realities, including the
 inviolability of borders.
 80.  There was the following question, too: Does the government study
 each phenomena as unidentified flying objects. The president replied
 that as far as he was aware there exist scientific collectives
 engaged in studying such phenomena.
 81.  This question came in: "Why, in your opinion, does Comrade
 Yeltsin enjoy great authority in the Urals and at Uralmash, but not
 with the government?"
 82.  M.S. Gorbachev replied: I have already been asked in the streets
 what my attitude is to B.N. Yeltsin. There was the time when I
 invited the first secretary of the Sverdlovsk oblast party committee
 and.Central Committee member to transfer to work in the Central
 Committee. We needed somebody in charge of the construction
 department, and Comrade Yeltsin, besides his party experience, had
 experience of construction, for he is a builder by education. He
 agreed and got actively involved in that work.  Then, when the nee ----
 to tackle the question of the first secretary of the Moscow committee
 came up, the choice was for Boris Nikolayevich. I presented him and
 recommended him on behalf of the Politburo and tried to support him.
 He set about the job ardently at first, but events developed in such
 a way that the situation in the city party organization grew tense.
 In the summer, when I was on holiday, he raised sharply the question
 of his resignation from that post. I said: I'll come back and we'll
 have a chat. My aim was simple: to cool passions, so that Comrade
 Yeltsin could continue working. But Boris Nikolayevich did not heed
 this advise and insisted on being relieved, since he did not want to
 work in such an atmosphere. I do not think he had sufficient
 arguments.  It was some kind of whim, strictly speaking, and that is
 just how the Central Committee saw it. But you have read all this--we
 published the story of this matter in full.
 83.  I was convinced that he had to be kept and I tried to keep this
 process within the framework of party democracy and comradely
 discussion. I attempted to ask once more how he viewed the
 observations of comrades. No, he said firmly, I ask you to relieve
 me. Well, let it be. Subsequently I insisted that his experience
 should be used in a ministerial post and that he should continue his
 activity in the Central Committee.
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 84.  There are all manner of turn-arounds in life. We took account of
 some of B.N. Yeltsin's qualities which had already been revealed when
 he was here--you know his style better than I do--but we thought that
 the Moscow party organization and the responsibility would "grind
 all that down" and the excesses would go. That did not happen. Then,
 in my opinion, he chose the course which was not the best and set off
 on the course of confrontation.
 85.  What are we getting from him? Nothing except a full dose of
 criticism. Well, that is the right of every member of the Central
 Committee, and deputy, his right. But it seems to me now that his
 potential as a political figure nonetheless is not great. His program
 and his speeches are known to me. If they are taken in succession, it
 is like an old played-out record, a collection of theses: The
 leadership is living out its term, it has exhausted itself, torn
 itself away from the people and so on and so forth.  If one takes the
 criticism by itself, it is of some use, all the same. However, I
 cannot agree with his indiscriminate accusations directed toward the
 leadership of the country, toward the party and the Central
 Committee.
 86.  What he touches upon requires serious political analysis.  While
 remaining principled, critical, demanding, one must behave
 responsibly oneself. Boris Nikoalyevich is speculating upon the
 difficulties, upon the socioeconomic tension: -7tll-thia-t-does -exist-,-
 but one can and must act in order to draw lessons, to turn the matter
 round, and not speculate upon the difficulties from demagogic
 positions. I think that here, Boris Nikolayevich has got carried away
 and is not at all able to get off this destructive track.
 87.  Of course, you understand; That it is only because I am in
 Sverdlovsk and you are asking me about it that I have given.such a
 detailed reply. On the whole, I have never delved deep into these
 discussions, I do not like them.  Today, we need to get things done,
 not engage in slogans and promises. I think probably something should
 be said about privileges. We ought to get to the point where there
 are no illegal privileges. There should be just one privilege: That
 labor, talent, position and merit should all be valued, but on the
 basis of law. In this connection we have already resolved a great
 deal. I know that both in your region and throughout the country
 these problems--concerning private residences and all manner of
 "special benefits"--are being resolved.
 88.  In Moscow, as far back as the time of the Civil War, Lenin and
 the country's top leadership were provided with state dachas. In the
 thirties the system was given legal status through appropriate
 decisions. This was done to fix the leadership's salaries at a
 certain level, so that they would not differ sharply from those of
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 workers, officials or the intelligentsia. Salaries for Politburo
 members and for secretaries of the CPSU Central Committee were R800,
 but in conjunction with this it was possible to order provisions up
 to a value of R400. And there were a number of other concessions. Now
 we have handed over all the dachas: In one case to veterans, in
 another for children, in a third case for medical purposes, in a
 fourth for holiday homes.
 89.  From now on all this will be decided at the Supreme Soviet, as
 is the case in all states. As far as the top two or three people are
 concerned, the Supreme Soviet will have to pass an official decision
 on what level of salary to set and what conditions are attached, and
 then publish this information for everyone to know. The main
 criterion is that everything should be assessed in terms of salary,
 and from there on one lives as the rest of the country lives.
 90.  Now we have got as far as personal pensions and personal
 transport. This all needs to be thought through.  I shall tell you
 frankly: We are of a mind to impose strict order.
 91.  What should be the state's first concern? Particularly deserving
 people--veterans, regardless of whether they are party members or
 not--and families with many children. Much has already been done in
 these six months. This work has proved to be not simple. The fact is
 that the system of privileges is to be foun  pract caIly everyw~iere.-
 For example, all the creative unions build holiday homes. And what is
 the situation in manufacturing industry?  Industrial workers
 themselves have earned the money to build their own social
 facilities. At Uralmash, let's say, who makes use of the holiday
 homes, the convalescent homes or the hunting lodges or whatever--is
 it all the workers or only the bosses? In other words, are there
 privileges here too or not? People argue over this. And I think: Let
 them argue.
 92.  The main criterion is the same: Everything should be evaluated
 according to the labor contribution of each person--worker, peasant,
 member of the intelligentsia, scientist, cultural worker and state
 official.
 93.  Now, if you will permit me I shall say a few words about the
 allegations that Gorbachev has an account in a Swiss bank and pays
 his royalties into it. I must disappoint those who love rumors: All
 of my royalties go into the party funds. This includes the royalties
 for the book "Restructuring and the New Thinking For Our Country and
 For the Whole World," which has been published in many countries. I
 put a million rubles into the party funds and did not take one kopeck
 for myself. I sent R350,000 to Irkutsk Children's Hospital, handed
 100,000 dollars to the Russian Children's Clinical Hospital for very
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 sick children. Raisa Maksimovna acts as patron of that hospital and
 helps it to develop in such a way that children from all over the
 country can receive highly qualified help here. R50,000 has been paid
 to the Culture Fund, R200,000 for the Terkin monument, R150,000 to
 Armenia for the victims of the earthquake, R50,000 to refugees from
 Azerbaijan. Royalties for that book are still coming in. What I do
 with them you can see from this "account" that I have given.
 94.  And, of course, there are no bank accounts in existence
 anywhere. It is demeaning and simply shameful even to reply to these
 fabrications. It pains me as a person that at times people stoop to
 such a vulgar level of, literally, narrow-mindedness, using such
 clumsy fabrications for political ends.
 95.  Many serious issues in urgent need of resolution have
 accumulated in our country. And it is necessary to approach all of
 them in a responsible manner.
 96.  But the main thing is to show, from the example of our vast
 country, that socialism is capable of carrying out deep
 transformations within the framework of democracy and legality.  It
 is necessary to do everything to avoid confrontation in society and
 even more so to avoid civil war, violence, illegality and arbitrary
 actions. The rule of law must prevail. No more organizing of
 witch-hunts or sowing of hatred in the quest--for -ari enemy must tie
 permitted.
 97.  Can the fate of Russia lie in this? Can one arrive at a
 democratic and humane socialism via new lawlessness?  No! I am
 convinced that in our country we must do everything in a good way.
 What is needed is patience and restraint. Some people make this
 appeal to me: Mikhail Sergeyevich, bang your fist! Others say: Give
 the order to strike at the headquarters! Dear comrades, we are
 developing the democratic process and the construction of a law-
 based state so that the people, themselves, should decide all the
 very important questions via the institutions of democracy and
 democratic processes in the party. But to strike with one's fist
 means failing to escape from the vicious circle.
 98.  We must become a civilized country. That is what our peoples,
 who have suffered so much and have done so much for history and for
 the entire world, are worthy of.  After all, without our socialist
 contribution the world would be different today.
 99.  And now, if perestroyka is victorious, there will be an entirely
 different world. If we lose--even though I think that we won't lose,
 simply our path may turn out to be more or less painful--the world
 will change for the worse. I know for a fact that you will no longer
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 return our people to the old life and you won't shut them up. The
 oxygen which our society has received as a result of democratization
 and openness is what our people and each person needs.
 100.  That path of changes on such a scale is difficult, not
 everything succeeds as planned. And we make errors, and we endure
 them, we endure them in a human way.  But there is no return to the
 past, our people have already gone through too much for them to be
 muzzled again. Indeed they themselves will not permit this. That is
 the main thing which I would like to say in conclusion.  I hope dear
 Uralmash workers, that you maintain your reputation at a high level
 and maintain your character.  Without you the country cannot live,
 just as you cannot live without the country. And in this spirit of
 mutual understanding let's part. I wish you great success, we will
 help one another also in futures (Applause)
 101.  Perestroyka is, first and foremost, the individual and concern
 for his vital needs. It is not by chance that the attention of M.S.
 Gorbachev, who on Thursday continued his visit to Sverdlovsk, was
 drawn to the blocks of the country's first youth housing complex.
 [passage omitted) The problem of foodstuffs in the country, including
 the Urals, is as acute. How can it be solved most quickly in the
 interests of Soviet people? This was the subject of a conversation
 between the USSR president and shoppers and sales people in one of
 the city's supermarkets.
 102.  M.S. Gorbachev was interested to know which foodstuffs and
 goods it was possible to buy, and what presented particular
 difficulties. The people complained in particular about the lack of
 fruit. Here the line is as follows, M.S. Gorbachev said: The city
 should have enough storehouses and conclude agreements about
 deliveries from southern republics. There will be no other means.
 It's not good that there is no reliable center for storing fruit and
 vegetables in Sverdlovsk. It is not good for such a city to live on
 handouts on what's being supplied to it.  I know storehouses are
 being built here, but evidently things are progressing slowly.
 103.  On Sverdlovsk's main square--named after the 1905
 revolution--the USSR president and CPSU Central Committee general
 secretary laid flowers at the V.I.  Lenin statue. A conversation with
 war and labor veterans on the glorious traditions of the Urals and on
 the valor and loyalty to their homeland of its sons and daughters.
 104.  I cordially greet you, dear veterans, Mikhail Sergeyevich
 addressed them, especially on the eve of the 45th anniversary of the
 great victory. The whole country is preparing to give the generation
 which did everything to defend our life, freedom and ideals, its due.
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 105.  N.I. Mikhailova-Gagarina, a veteran of the airborne assault
 troops, entered the conversation. We are proud of what we have lived
 through, she said, noticeably nervous. We thank the state for its
 care of us. Mikhail Sergeyevich answered: The optimism, confidence
 and calmness of the veterans always attracts me. [passage omitted]
 106.  We need, M.S. Gorbachev said, to renew society and more fully
 open up the possibilities of the socialist system and increase the
 party's authority by deeds. And we will certainly preserve our ideals
 and spiritual values, we will carry the banner of our cause high.
 107.  For how do some people act: They, it seems, are in favor of the
 renewal process but are ready to throw out the baby, as they say,
 with the bath water, and are prepared to reject socialism. We
 ourselves, of course, must investigate our party base. If someone has
 decided to act differently today, let him act as his conscience
 allows.  But we must go to the congress consolidated.
 108.  M.S. Gorbachev approached another group of citizens who wanted
 to know the president's point of view on the problems of forming a
 market economy in the country and his opinion on the draft laws being
 prepared and the means for improving the economy. There was a
 detailed and frank conversation on these themes.
 109.  One of the questions, outside of the general framework, went
 like this: Why are talks not being conducted with Lithuania?
 110.  --We conduct talks with other states--Mikhail Sergeyevich
 answered--but we consider Lithuania a Soviet republic. If you
 remember the question was put precisely in this way at the Third USSR
 Congress of People's Deputies. And you and I, in the face of the
 Congress decisions, are in an identical situation.
 111.  The Urals has from time immemorial forged weapons for the
 defense of the homeland. A powerful defense potential has ben created
 here. The new political thinking born of perestroyka has allowed the
 country to reorient a considerable proportion of the capacities of
 the defense complex to production of purely peaceful output.
 112.  An exhibition of consumer goods set out at one of the
 enterprises which is undergoing conversion, the Urals
 Electro-Mechanical Works, shows how this difficult process is
 proceeding. M.S. Gorbachev looked around the exhibition.
 113.  He assessed the creative work of the engineers, designers, and
 workers by whose efforts high-quality competitive civilian products
 are being produced.
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 114.  As the saying goes, there are goods and goods. It is very
 important, the president of the USSR noted, to use the great
 intellectual and technical potential of the defense sector to obtain
 output of the hightest category. The exhibition displays the most
 modern models of medical apparatus, household electronics, and video
 equipment.  It was emphasized in the conversation that it was
 important for these items to be put into mass production more quickly
 and that they should become not just exhibition display items but
 goods which everyone can buy.
 115.  A detailed dialogue about the problems being tackled by Soviet
 scientists and about the development of the scientific potential and
 of the Urals took place at the Institute of Metals Physics of the
 Urals Scientific Center.
 116.  Leading representatives of virtually all branches of science
 had assembled here for the meeting with the USSR president.
 117.  Opening the meeting, G.A. Mesyats, chairman of the Presidium of
 the Urals Scientific Center and vice-president of the USSR Academy of
 Sciences, dwelt in detail on the main activities of the Urals branch
 of the Academy, which now unites 38 scientific institutions, special
 design bureau for scientific instrument making, and a number of
 engineering centers.
 118.  The majority of those who took part in the exchange of views
 drew attention to problems of the development of fundamental science,
 having noted the need to raise its prestige, renew the material base,
 and strengthen higher educational establishments. In particular, it
 was pointed out that the interests of the development of fundamental
 science and the results of the introduction of market principles in
 the economy are now entering into a contradiction. A firm legislative
 base, which removes this tendency, is necessary, the speakers
 believe.
 119.  It was said also that the scientists' limited opportunities for
 developing international contacts is one of the factors restraining
 progress in science and research.
 120.  Addressing the meeting, M.S. Gorbachev said in particular: I
 profess the following point of view. In politics there would be fewer
 mistakes, policy well-grounded, real, and effective, if it rested on
 scientific knowledge. A scientific prediction of our advance is
 especially topical in the Urals, in a region which plays an immense
 role in the development of the productive forces of the entire
 country. The Urals have taken on too many of the country's worries
 during the years that were difficult for it, for us to continue
 exploiting it today without thinking of anything apart from
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 increasing capacities and labor resources.
 121.  In this hall I have heard much that is useful and interesting,
 K.S. Gorbachev stressed. Nov, according to him, is precisely the
 moment for everyone together to think soundly about things, including
 the question of how it came to pass that such a oblast, has found
 itself with such old capital stock.
 122.  Responding to the addresses by the scientists, M.S.  Gorbachev
 noted that he shares their concern over the state and fate of
 fundamental science in the Soviet Union.
 123.  The president replied to questions by participants in the
 meeting concerning both problems of scientific and technical progress
 and the realities of today's socio-political situation in the
 country.
 124.  In the evening a meeting between representatives of the working
 people of Sverdlovsk oblast, party, war and labor veterans and M.S.
 Gorbachev took place in the Youth Palace.
 125.  The participants in the meeting were addressed by M.S.
 Gorbachev. The address will be published in the press.

